The seeming fashion for labelling people toxic, narcissistic etc

[Sideways]

His behavior didn’t even cause PTSD for me, but it left me home unable to leave the house as I truly felt I was going crazy! Besides the fact that he turned so many people against me. For a long time I literally thought i was going crazy but once I read what gaslighting is it was like

Maybe pencil this in to explore it some time. Using the expression “just emotional/mental abuse” is a red flag for me that perhaps you haven’t picked this apart fully with your T yet.

I can toss out those labels like “ritualistic” now. But only because one of my Ts put a book in front of me about it (literally) and told me I needed to read it, then challenged me with “how does that not apply to you”. It’s not like I didn’t know the word, it just hadn’t occurred to me to use it in relation to myself. It’s obvious now, but totally blew my mind at the time.

If a person has you at the point where you’re afraid to leave your house? My guess is there are labels that apply to specific things you endured. And like many of us, you may already know what those labels are, and it simply hasn’t occurred to you that they apply in your case. There were things, very specific things, going on in your relationship that drove you to that point.

Most often? Those things have been described, catagorised, and labelled. And it’s not about do you have the vocabulary to know what those labels are, it’s about have you reached a point where you can identify the labels that apply to you. Acceptance. Takes a long time.

“Emotional abuse” says more to me about your experience than sociopath (they’re often incredibly likeable) or narcissistic (simply an assessment of your abuser’s values).

In my own case, there was very calculated psychological abuse going on. There are terms that apply to differentiate those experiences. And most people round these traps? Get that the emotional abuse lingers on longer than bruises and broken bones.

But even starting with something simple, like whether it was routine (like, “I knew, every Monday, he would...”), or spontaneous (like, “I never knew if...”), gives more insight into your experience than “sociopath” does. Not because routine is worse than spontaneous or vice versa, but because it tells me about what you endured...

Idk, perhaps something to revisit for you some time. Maybe, maybe not.

 

[mylunareclipse]

thank you for your insight @Sideways
I think one thing that hit me reading your post was that : I recognized what was happening to me while it was still ongoing I was still giving this person chances. Labeling this persons behavior helped me detach myself from them and stop being abused. Does that make sense? Ie as he kept playing mind games I was able to identify them as so and stop all contact/ play grey rock method. Had I not I might still not be able to “understand” what’s happening. Versus I think for you and maybe others this insight came after the fact, when maybe the labeling of the abusers behavior was not as important as how it affected you. Maybe this is why some of us believe the labeling was very important and for some of us it doesn’t seem so.
I agree with you that I haven’t completely healed on what happened to me. I am honestly surprised that I am even admitting it here so openly. I have perhaps admitted to myself what happened to me but not fully how it has affected me...perhaps figuring out what scars it left me with?
I have also learned a lot about my codependent tendencies and tried to change them. It takes two to tango I understand. But reading about narcissistic abuse was the lightbulb I needed to detach myself from this person and started healing. Hope that makes sense.

@berlinda. For me was more about the insight than who the other person is. I used to think that I needed to find the absolute truth. In reality all I needed to find was the relative truth. The behavior of this person towards me was classical to sociopathic narcissists, it fit way too many boxes. It doesn’t matter to me so much if this person went to a psychiatrist they would be diagnosed as NPD or not, heck it doesn’t even matter to me if this person behaves similarly with other people (which he does by the way). The thing is he acted this way towards me and used behaviors that narcissists use to abuse me. That’s it. Not all narcissists are abusers. And I believe narcissistic traits can be displayed at times but most people probably.
In a it’s like saying well this person is not a rapist because they didn’t rape me they only raped you, they are a good community person etc. just because someone’s relative experience with a person with NPD is different doesn’t mean that they do bot abuse and others.
It’s funny because I don’t really feel even so much like invalidated because of all this discussion here because I know what happened to me. I know that I was abused from someone who displayed classical NPD traits and that’s it. Other people’s truths might be different. Most people fall on a spectrum.

 

[ChildofGod]

This is a multigenerational issue. The patterns repeat themselves unless someone takes actions to end the cycle of abuse.

They may be labels to some but to others, but for me, my life was ruined purposely by abusers that are total narcisissts and their love often had limitations and rules. Also, being loved by them came with a long list of conditions.

 

[Rani G2]

NPD is rare. It doesn’t mean the person is evil, any more than PTSD does.

Yes!!! I was diagnosed by a psychiatrist a few years ago. I must always, always gain distance to the Diagnosis NPD! If not I keep on checking signs/symptoms and fear therapy hasn’t worked for me. I Do struggle with the inability to feel empathy. Now, when saying this people will say, „Oh you can’t be having NPD when you question that aspect“. I don’t know...I really don’t know. All I do know is that I dont feel compassion but I have an idea of compassion. It’s all that I can say.

 

[jenny2682]

All of us have good and bad characteristics. But people would rather talk about things in black and white terms because it's easier.

(Feel free to skip the next two paragraphs of blathering.)

For example, an online trend lately is to brand masculinity - and by extension, all men - as "toxic" (an extreme pet peeve of mine, of course). Far from being a steadying influence, the academic world looks at men solely from a deficit model - that is, they concentrate on how the performance of masculinity is harmful to society and all individuals within society - so, basically academia happily backs up your favorite influencer's notion that "men are toxic."

Those of us who actually have to deal with men in real life, or who happen to actually BE men, know that the situation is far less dire than the picture painted by sociologists and social media. But you'd never know that if you have to go to college or use the internet a lot.

I don’t see that at all. Most articles relate and say “narcissist” and are genderless. The disease has clear cut diagnostic behaviors which can be seen in both genders. And sadly some men have behaviors that are toxic that they don’t know it. Mainly flirting inappropriately and trying to keep going after and contacting women who have said they aren’t interested. There are a lot of “nice guys” out there.

Also what is wrong with going to college or using the internet a lot? I have to use it for work, use it to message college friends in different states, get directions, recipes and find out more about topics I’m interested in. People used to read books, now they read about topics online. Also this topic isn’t necessarily new. The Gift of Fear and other type of books came out years ago.

 

[somerandomguy]

Also what is wrong with going to college or using the internet a lot?

I think you missed my point, but it's not important. I was just saying that both people on social media and scholars at universities approach masculinity as if it was 100% harmful, which it is not. Masculinity has many positive characteristics, but you'd never know it if you are on various types of social media (e.g. Twitter or Instagram) or attend university classes in certain disciplines (e.g. sociology or gender studies).

 

[Mee]

I don’t think this pattern of abuse is about motivation necessarily.

I think I need to clarify my communication here as from this response it’s clear we aren’t talking about the same thing.

I’m going to try to clarify by giving an example.

Let’s say a behaviour is ‘silent treatment/ghosting’ because that’s also very buzz word-y right now and relates to abusive patterns of behaviour often.

So. My friend John Doe stops calling me. I am ghosted. I note the other times he has let me down. It’s possible I am no good to him as narcissistic supply anymore.

It’s also possible that he stopped calling me because of something I said. Because of my thoughtlessness.

Or it’s possible that he has had a crisis and his stresscuo is full and he cannot take me right now.

Or it’s possible or friendship just ...isn’t working for him right now. Modern communication makes the gentle fade out that used to be organic a little more difficult.

On one hand as victims we are told cut anyone abusive out of our lives, feel no guilt, don’t look back. On the other hand. Ghosting is a modern sin correlated with cowardice or ego problems and narcissism.


The truth is I don’t know what has ‘motivated’ John Doe to ghost me. It could be one of those things, or something else. Part of a pattern of abuse or not. It could be a reactive abuse, a trigger of an attachment style for Mr Doe. I don’t know because I don’t have the scoop. I just don’t. And if he IS abusive and deceptive I couldn’t trust the scoop.

The same performed actions can have different motivations. Someone with PTSD could appear like a mean, selfish and various other diagnoses to someone not informed. This space is rigid about self diagnosis being inappropriate for ptsd. So why would our amateur diagnosis of others be appropriate?

They injured us, is more than enough I think. What their injury is isn’t my problem. Trying to worry about that is actually part of my mine.


I’m not trying to say I find this comfortable and easy ; I don’t, especially because it’s so prolific.

FWIW my therapist also thinks we shouldn’t look to our diagnosis too much in healing. Know it. But address the healing as individual. I go back and forth on whether I agree with her on this.

 

[Ronin]

They injured us, is more than enough I think. What their injury is isn’t my problem. Trying to worry about that is actually part of my mine.

That was an awesome summary, thank you.

 

[Mee]

Another point; when others read about this stuff do you ever go through self doubt and wondering if it apply to you?

My first few weeks with my therapist after being out of initial trauma I would turn up and say I thought I might be a narcissist, or maybe I had sociopathic tendencies or whatever, after reading about this stuff. I was DESPERATE to attach my abuse and assault to a failure in me. And the behaviours individually are something almost everyone does sometimes.


I read an amazing thing about gaslighting which said ‘most of us have done something this manipulative once or twice; the question is is it habitual and intentional.’

Very few people truly address their failings I think; and it’s very easy therefore to if accepting failings to feel abnormal. Especially if the scale is tipped with an abnormality of ptsd and having been told you are ‘wrong’ somehow!

 

[Mee]

That was an awesome summary, thank you.

Blushes. ?. And I could have done it that concisely . ?

 

[EveHarrington]

“Narcissistic” is an adjective. It doesn’t mean “NPD” or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

It’s the same as calling someone paranoid. I can be paranoid AF but I have been repeatedly assured that I do not have PPD or paranoid personality disorder.

 

[DharmaGirl]

Again, I think if you have been abused by a sociopathic narcissist you would know once you know.

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That's what I have an issue with. In you opinion, this person is a sociopathic narcissist. You came by this opinion by reading stuff on the internet. It makes you feel better. This doesn't make it true. How you interpret someones actions is not the truth, it is your opinion of why they acted like they did.

How cruel someone is, and how damaging others, and in what ways? Does not direct correlate to any of their disorders.

I agree so much!

But I can't swallow the diagnosing / labelling people as NPD or what have you.

I totally agree. I have been battling this too. I lived with a diagnosed NPD, and he was not evil. He was self-centered to the point that if it didn't have to do with him, it didn't exist, but he didn't do it to be abusive. He did it because that was the way he saw the world.

The truth is I don’t know what has ‘motivated’ John Doe to ghost me.

Perhaps he was going no contact with you. I'm not saying that in a mean way, I just wonder why going no contact is different than ghosting, which by the way many people with PTSD do.

“Narcissistic” is an adjective. It doesn’t mean “NPD” or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Ok that explains a lot. I can see it in that sense, but I think it has morphed into a life of it's own, and it is being over-used.

We all, and that means healthy people too have symptoms of many, many diagnoses. What makes them a mental illness is when it interferes in your life. Many people have narcissistic qualities, many people have some symptoms of PTSD. If you go through nursing school or medical school you will find that you think you have all sorts of illnesses.

In the end, I agree with you @berlinda. I think it borders on hysteria with so many people witch hunting others yelling narcissist. Doesn't make me right, but it is my perception.