The seeming fashion for labelling people toxic, narcissistic etc

[TruthSeeker]

^The thing about therapists.. as with all professionals who work in areas where expertise and qualifications are critical... is they get to choose. There are many psydocs and therapists who are more than happy to work with NPD and lots of other psychiatric illnesses and mental health conditions too. Many that are seemingly just as intractable as you say NPD is. They are trained and experienced in the traits of these conditions. They are not scared or uncomfortable with working with people who have these conditions so they can help and treat these people. And that at the end of the day is what is important. That treatment is available and those that do want it can get it.

I can see why you may be uncomfortable @TruthSeeker - obviously you are not trained or an expert in treating these conditions. You have your trauma tied up with people who exhibited these traits possibly? Idk..

And yeah @PURUSHA - I was aware that you were diagnosed and had been having treatment for your illness. If some people who refused treatment for ptsd owned up to their mental health illness and showed as much tenacity there could be a better outcome for them too.

@blackemerald1 I've seen 2 therapists.....who both said they had 18 and 38 years respectively of MH experience, were licensed, and within one session didn't have any training or knowledge of dissociation (but they advertised Trauma, PTSD, and dissociative disorders). Yep.....and the latest I hear is everyone has trauma.....so they seem to see trauma has a catch all.....like it's normal.

 

[Mee]

@blackemerald I've seen 2 therapists.....who both said they had 18 and 38 years respectively of MH experience, were licensed, and within one session didn't have any training or knowledge of dissociation (but they advertised Trauma, PTSD, and dissociative disorders). Yep.....and the latest I hear is everyone has trauma.....so they seem to see trauma has a catch all.....like it's normal.

This is a big deal among the mental health professionals I follow . They ALL complain about it. Where I am there is not licensing in the same way and while in the normal health pathway the resources for PTSD in my area are very limited ( CBT course of twelve weeks, for which I was not a suitable candidate as you cannot have SI which for me was very bad at the time) we privately find our own way and MH professionals, often similarly selecting from people who say they treat ‘x, y and z ‘ but actually are not informed of much, and certainly not more recent thoughts.

It’s not sufficient. I’m a little concerned at the ‘quick fixes’ being suggested now, a surgery I have seen, a type of nerve block I think. Especially for those who have complex ptsd or attachment issues/ complicated histories it seems that we need more time, more nurturing, more learning how to be best at functioning, not less.

 

[L83201]

Yes it's probably black and white thinking to label ppl as good or bad. There's always someone worse and someone better. It's probably a coping strategy we use to survive, to reassure ourselves "this will never happen again", but this belief (for ex. that all those who have a certain personality trait are danger) could prevent us from having a healthy and fulfilling relationship with someone who we might have labeled as narcissistic once because of one stupid thing they said, for example.

Some activists say it's ableist to say that all people with a certain mental illness are bad, which makes sense to some extent, but if you go look up the actual diagnostic criteria of some personality disorders, they state something on the line of "this person doesn't give a shit about anyone else, they might kill other people if they feel like it because they have no impulse control or sense of empathy", so are they being stigmatized when someone says they're bad? I don't know. ??‍

I do think that people tend to obsess over describing and identifying people with a certain "incredibly dangerous" diagnosis. There is such a thing as narcissistic abuse awareness day or something. ??‍

 

[L83201]

Ah, but where have you seen the "correct" connotation in popular culture? In fact, people - both men and women - are throwing out the phrase "toxic masculinity" to mean "men are toxic."

And there's a whole argument about whether so-called "toxic masculinity" is actually a thing. I say it's not, but I'm not going to hijack this thread about it. It's enough to say that an entire gender gets called toxic, and that is incorrect.

So this is coming down to the #notallmen and #yesallmen conversation, which I agree is not what the thread is about. Also, there's plenty of stuff on everydayfeminism about what toxic masculinity is and how to divest from it. The same can be found for toxic whiteness, these expression are not used to stigmatize men or white ppl but rather to make us more aware of the privileges we hold in society due to the oppressive system currently in place (in this case, sexism and racism).

 

[TruthSeeker]

This is a big deal among the mental health professionals I follow . They ALL complain about it. Where I am there is not licensing in the same way and while in the normal health pathway the resources for PTSD in my area are very limited ( CBT course of twelve weeks, for which I was not a suitable candidate as you cannot have SI which for me was very bad at the time) we privately find our own way and MH professionals, often similarly selecting from people who say they treat ‘x, y and z ‘ but actually are not informed of much, and certainly not more recent thoughts.

It’s not sufficient. I’m a little concerned at the ‘quick fixes’ being suggested now, a surgery I have seen, a type of nerve block I think. Especially for those who have complex ptsd or attachment issues/ complicated histories it seems that we need more time, more nurturing, more learning how to be best at functioning, not less.

Yea...totally sucks....that the professionals don't have to be well-rounded and well-informed to have a license.

Yes it's probably black and white thinking to label ppl as good or bad. There's always someone worse and someone better. It's probably a coping strategy we use to survive, to reassure ourselves "this will never happen again", but this belief (for ex. that all those who have a certain personality trait are danger) could prevent us from having a healthy and fulfilling relationship with someone who we might have labeled as narcissistic once because of one stupid thing they said, for example.

Some activists say it's ableist to say that all people with a certain mental illness are bad, which makes sense to some extent, but if you go look up the actual diagnostic criteria of some personality disorders, they state something on the line of "this person doesn't give a shit about anyone else, they might kill other people if they feel like it because they have no impulse control or sense of empathy", so are they being stigmatized when someone says they're bad? I don't know. ??‍

I do think that people tend to obsess over describing and identifying people with a certain "incredibly dangerous" diagnosis. There is such a thing as narcissistic abuse awareness day or something. ??‍

About National Mental Health Holidays: You forgot some of these-No name calling week, national clean off your desk day, national random act of kindness day, national eating disorders week, self-harm awareness month, alcohol awareness month, national stress awareness day, self-discovery month, national children's mental health awareness day, national minority mental health awareness day,national PTSD awareness day, national suicide prevention month, OCD awareness week, ADHD awareness month, survivors of suicide day, International day of persons with disabilities, World bipolar day, self-discovery month, and the list goes on and on........nobody's picking on just narcissists for an awareness day.......it looks like a pretty fair awareness list....

About Getting Diagnosed: If someone diagnoses someone because of "one stupid thing they said" as you suggested, well then the diagnostician is stupid. There is a pattern of behaviors NPD just like there is a pattern of behaviors for PTSD/CPTSD, depression and anxiety, etc.....so we hope therapists have better ethics than to do what you suggest. Many people who have been on the other side, the trauma side, have had the emotional damage that a narcissist delivers. People involved with mind control, religious cults, and people with NPD (diagnosed or undiagnosed) are negatively impacted and traumatized by their manipulative, hot-cold, gaslighting behavior. While I agree, if someone is selfish once, that doesn't make them a narcissist....it makes them selfish. If their behavior is continually self-serving...and continues over years.....rethink that......I don't think anyone believes one or two selfish or stupid remarks is a criteria for a NPD diagnosis. NPD is a long pattern of extreme "me-ness" which translates to its codependts and victims as "meanness."

 

[somerandomguy]

Also, there's plenty of stuff on everydayfeminism

There's your problem. Pretty much every feminist group on the internet looks at masculinity using a deficit model, when in fact I believe that masculinity is usually a net positive in society. Almost all men are not perpetrators of abuse, do not harass or attack women, are not harmful to themselves or others. Some women (and men) have been hurt badly by men and therefore are unable to see any positive aspects of masculinity. Sadly, those can often be the loudest voices on the internet.

these expression are not used to stigmatize men

Incorrect. Are you a man? Shouldn't you ask men if they feel stigmatized by these expressions? I am a man, and I do. I know many, many other men who do, too.

 

[TruthSeeker]

There's your problem. Pretty much every feminist group on the internet looks at masculinity using a deficit model, when in fact I believe that masculinity is usually a net positive in society. Almost all men are not perpetrators, do not harass or attack women, are not harmful to themselves or others. Some women have been hurt badly by men and therefore are unable to see any positive aspects of masculinity. Those are the people you see the most of on the internet.

Incorrect. Are you a man? Shouldn't you ask men if they feel stigmatized by these expressions? I am a man, and I do. I know many, many other men who do, too.

@somerandomguy Consider that magic exists. If you could change your sex, "poof" like you change your socks, and you wanted to belong to the safest sex in the US (cause you got PTSD), which sex would you feel was the safest to be? Use the data, taken from the National Domestic Hotline.

3 in 10 women experience rape, physical violence, or stalking by a partner and report a related impact on their functioning (30%) as compared to 1 in 10 men (10%).
Injury to women as a result of rape, physical violence, or stalking (15%) as compared to men (4%)

1 in 4 women (25%) in the US and 1 in 7 men(13.8%) age 18 or older, have been the victim of a violent crime by an intimate partner.

Females 18-24 and 25-34 generally experience the highest rates of intimate partner violence.

From 1994-2010 4/5 (80%) of victims of intimate partner violence were female.

Most female victims of intimate partner violence were previously victimized by the same offender, including 77% of females age 25-34; and ages 35-49.

Sexual violence: Nearly one in 5 women(18%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) have been raped in their lifetime.

Nearly 1 in 10 women in the US have been raped by an intimate partner.

81% of the women who experienced rape, stalking, or physical violence by and intimate partner experienced PTSD symptoms and injury compared to 35% of men who reported symptoms from their injury.

So, if you believe the statistics....it can be inferred that more men in the US are perpetrators. This counters your...."Almost all men are not perpetrators, do not harass or attack women, are not harmful to themselves or others. Some women have been hurt badly by men and therefore are unable to see any positive aspects of masculinity. Those are the people you see the most of on the internet." No the reason you see so many women on the internet is because the data clearly says that women are getting hurt by men. Your position is devoid of feeling, doesn't acknowledge that a clear percentage of men have harmed women, minimizes the harm done by men-clearly what you write is just your opinion....well, I don't agree. ....trauma is real and quite painful for those who've been on the receiving end....male or female....it all hurts.

 

[somerandomguy]

@TruthSeeker - and yet, why is it that most men want to have daughters instead of sons? (My source is the introduction to The Boy Crisis by Warren Farrell and John Gray.) Because girls simply have more opportunities than boys. Being a boy on his way to manhood is a much harder road than being a girl on her way to womanhood.

You can throw as many statistics at me as you want (and most especially DO NOT quote domestic violence statistics at me, a male domestic violence survivor, because HOW DARE YOU). You see, I have a trump card - men DO NOT report their abuse. All of the statistics you want to overwhelm me with are wrong. They're our best guess, for sure. But all of them undercount men by multitudes, because men do not report their abuse.

For example, intimate partner violence statistics that are adjusted for the undercount of men show that men are victims of IPV as often as women. Most of the other statistics you quote are the same. Some of your figures above are truly laughable and have been discredited for years. (1 in 71? Really??)

I have nothing else to say. This isn't the place for this debate, but it's a debate you're going to lose - because you're wrong.

 

[Sideways]

go look up the actual diagnostic criteria of some personality disorders, they state something on the line of "this person doesn't give a shit about anyone else, they might kill other people if they feel like it because they have no impulse control or sense of empathy"

NPD is a long pattern of extreme "me-ness"

Gotta be said that linking NPD to garbage like this? Think maybe you guys have made the OP’s point for them.

 

[TruthSeeker]

@TruthSeeker - and yet, why is it that most men want to have daughters instead of sons? (My source is the introduction to The Boy Crisis by Warren Farrell and John Gray.) Because girls simply have more opportunities than boys. Being a boy on his way to manhood is a much harder road than being a girl on her way to womanhood.

You can throw as many statistics at me as you want (and most especially DO NOT quote domestic violence statistics at me, a male domestic violence survivor, because HOW DARE YOU). You see, I have a trump card - men DO NOT report their abuse. All of the statistics you want to overwhelm me with are wrong. They're our best guess, for sure. But all of them undercount men by multitudes, because men do not report their abuse.

For example, intimate partner violence statistics that are adjusted for the undercount of men show that men are victims of IPV as often as women. Most of the other statistics you quote are the same. Some of your figures above are truly laughable and have been discredited for years. (1 in 71? Really??)

I have nothing else to say. This isn't the place for this debate, but it's a debate you're going to lose - because you're wrong.

I'm wrong because you say so? Right....HAH!

 

[joeylittle]

@TruthSeeker, @somerandomguy, @L83201 - the side debate on gender issues is derailing the thread. Stop.

Back on topic, please.

 

[Ronin]

Think maybe you guys have made the OP’s point for them.

This.

Not even starting on, some of us, when most at Not giving a shit and at wish to hurt... disengage.

Yet pop nonsense always comes back with If you want to hurt someone else, you just will, shoo shoo, psycho. :rolleyes: Magic wand of This emotionality makes me do things still at doing bonk, bonk, and you too, for these article writers.