News Events around the George Floyd protests and riots, US and beyond

[joeylittle]

police brutality is unacceptable for anyone....no matter the color of their skin or how different they may be.

and racism is also unacceptable for anyone, no matter the color of their skin or how different they may be. Right?

It is coming together for mutual benefit....nonviolently uniting all opposed to police brutality...... gets more people in the cause,

It can't be an either-or proposition...saying, lets not deal with racism because it's too controversial, won't unite enough people...that's really depressing. If that's what it takes to get more people in the cause - those people need to take a long hard look in the mirror, and understand what exactly their problem is.

However, as long as hatred exists...and hatred fuels people's responses to injustice...... and racism is the focus and not police brutality, I see little opportunity for the kind of change that is needed to make this world a better place for all to live-together

So, lets not tackle racism?

Because I'm pretty sure that if you count all the bad cops, and then count all the racists in America...there would be more racists, probably by a large factor. Police brutality is bad and wrong, emphatic yes. But not all police are bad. Racism is also bad and wrong...and there's really no such thing as a "good" racist. ALL racism is bad.

So, I'd hate to have to pick one of these two evils to fight against. But if I had to..I'd pick the greater evil, racism.

And, sadly, if all that people remember later is the violence and looting then they won't want to help fix the things that caused the protests in the first place..

If that's all that people remember, it will be because it's all they choose to remember.

And by doing so, they are endorsing racism.

I guess all I'm saying is, I don't think racism is a topic that people can choose to opt out of, anymore.

I think that's the whole point.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

My dad is a racist. He won't admit that he is as he says he has black friends but he is. He's been called racist by many more people then just me. He thinks Travon Martin was the bad guy and had it coming because he acted a certian way, and was black though he was doing nothing wrong and didn't have a gun. He says the N word often. And never seems to think police brutality on the black is a thing. He thinks that, because they are black, it's necessary and then he tells me how many black are in prisons and jails vs white. Like there can't be white criminals that just don't get prosecuted. I have no idea what he thinks about George Floyd and the protests as I won't be asking him as he always pisses me off when he speaks.

I lived with him for 8 years and I couldn't tackle that and I tried so hard so many different ways and I could not change one ounce of it.

I've looked inside of myself to see of any leftover racisim that could be there. I was raised a racisist but I had differenting views at the time that I just didn't say. I often say I'm color blind when it comes to people. I don't see people as black or white or Asin or Hispanic unless I'm like pressed to describe someone. I see them all as people. Just people. But that's not 100% true. There are some left over racist thoughts there. Not huge and I still see all people as people but I'm not "color blind" as I often tell myself. Like, I often say to myself "black people are so loud". I know, racist. So, I'm looking into myself to change those left over racist thoughts that was planted as a child. That's what George Floyd's death and these protests/criminal riots have done for me. I wish the highly racist people, like my dad, could do the same.

 

[Movingforward10]

This debate shows how messy the world is.

As a gay person my view is: Stonewall was a riot.
That happened becuase police brutality. Brutality that was allowed and endorsed because society was oppressing us and didn't care one bit what happened to us. When your voice is not heard, what do you do? You get angry. You fight back. Right? Wrong? Something has to change and if your voice is seen as inconsequential, what do you have if words are not enough?

Saying that, I don't condone violence and looting at all. We had riots here in 2011 in the UK after a black man was murdered by the police. It was scary. It isn't easy to live in it.

But I understand the anger.

There has to be change.
This is happening because of racism.
I agree: tackle racism. I mean, how is that even up for debate? We're all human. We're all equal. I can not understand how hard that is for some people to grasp.

 

[scout86]

Unless you would like to regress into the Wild West be careful of what you wish fo

First, to be clear, I wasn't calling for "demilitarization". I was questioning an attitude that I've observed personally. Seems like "demilitarization" means different things to different people and it's hard to even discuss unless everyone agrees on the definition of terms.

I totally get that traffic stops are dangerous for police officers. If I get stopped, I make sure I have my license and proof of insurance on the seat before the officer ever gets to the car and have both hands on the steering wheel when they get there. Why? Because I know there's a chance the officer might let their fear get the better of them and things could go sideways. I take personal responsibility for encouraging the officer to feel safe, so we both get through the stop with no drama. I probably do that because of the PTSD, to be honest. I've talked to enough law enforcement folks that I have a good idea what they might be thinking and I'm aware enough of how things can go wrong that it's important to be proactive. MOST people though, might not have a background that leads them to think of this stuff. So, maybe we should teach everyone the "right" way to respond to a traffic stop, or anything else. So people's natural reactions don't get them in trouble.

The arrest was justified what happened after the arrest was not.

Right now, I don't think I've got enough information to be sure of that. I don't know how good the ID was of the person who allegedly passed a bad bill, for a start. I don't know how they knew they had the right person and I guess I'm still a little surprised that you'd actually haul a person in to jail for spending a $20 bill that turned out to be bad. If they thought he was part of a counterfeiting ring, seems like the arrest would have been part of a bigger investigation. JMO, but arresting him seems like overkill. Unless they KNEW he knew the bill was fake, etc, and I haven't heard anything about that yet. So, I guess I don't have an opinion yet on how valid the arrest was.

As of last night, the media is reporting that 2 of the 4 officers involved in Mr. Floyd's killing were very new to the force. One, they say was working his third shift and the other his fourth day. (I'm trying to figure out what it means that they worded it like that.) These guys were in the same car and were first on the scene. Apparently the more experienced officers arrived after Mr. Floyd had been cuffed. (I'd just like to add that I'm not at all sure how accurate the media reporting is at this time. Pretty sure they are right about who was partnered with who and who got there first.) How common is it to send 2 green officers out together? Seems like something you'd rather not do, if you could avoid it? Apparently it had little to do with how things played out, other than that attorneys for the two inexperienced officers are suggesting that their inexperience is a mitigating factor. (I'm sure open to that possibility. Seems like a rather nightmarish way to begin, and potentially end, your career.)

I don't have a job where I'm going to get shot at. I DO have a job where I could get hurt. Some of the animals I work with actually do want to hurt me. A lot of their owners are so utterly clueless that they are more a liability than anything else and I also have to worry about keeping THEM out of harm's way. Something I've learned over the years is that my attitude has a huge impact on what happens. I REALLY want to keep everyone functioning from those higher brain centers if I can. (With a horse, that can be tough because those centers are relatively small.) So, ESPECIALLY when things are dicey, I want to project calmness. Especially if I don't feel it. If I go in acting like I'm a bully, things nearly always devolve from there. I can ALWAYS escalate. Hard to back off once you've started out acting tough. Did I mention this is an act? Because a lot of the time it is. I might be fearful, I might be angry, I might be a lot of things but I ACT like things are under control, we're all friend here, there is no threat. Of course I know there's a threat, it's just that I've learned it's generally not useful to go there.

I'm not saying that my job is anywhere near are dangerous as law enforcement, it's not. Just saying I see similarities. And, (I've thought about this), even though I'm well aware that I could get hurt, if the day ever dawns that that fear takes control of how I go about my job, I'll quit because I'll know I can no longer safely do my job. "Fear", is the enemy, as far as I'm concerned, it's not my friend. Both my own fear and everyone else's. It's a pretty unstable thing to use to control a situation. Sometimes it can work for awhile, absolutely, but I see it as a problem more than a solution nearly all of the time. To be honest, I get kind of a rush from trying to walk that fine line and make things work. I don't get much satisfaction from putting a horse in fear for his life (but I've done it). I get a ton of satisfaction from having one of those situations come up and keeping it from going there. I'm not always sure that rush is a "good" thing, or a healthy thing, but it's there. I would guess there's an equivalent for a lot of people in law enforcement. (Had one really memorable conversation with a guy on the local equivalent to a SWAT team. He got it, totally. I think everyone else there thought we were nuts. LOL Actually, that conversation got started because he told me he thought my job was dangerous. I laughed and pointed out no one shot at ME. He laughed and the note comparing began. Fascinating guy to talk with.)

So, for example @Rainman8772 , if I encounter someone who begins by being loud and belligerent, my first response is going to be to get my hackles up a bit. That person lays hands on me? Things escalate. And I frankly don't much care what uniform they're wearing or who they think they are. What makes anyone thing people don't react that way? (Serious question.) I get that there's a school of thought that thinks police officers are well within their rights to be aggressive. I'm suggesting that that doesn't work real well, most of the time. Granted, when you set out to control people with intimidation it often works, but is that really necessary or best? I totally get that once in awhile you make a traffic stop and the person being stopped charges out of their car and tries to kill you. But a small percentage of the time, right? Yes, you have to be prepared for it, absolutely. And, obviously (I hope) that's not how someone should handle being stopped by the police. But MOST of the time, people's responses are in accord with how they are treated. Even from an unsavory individual, in the short run I think finesse works better. But it's also often harder.

I looked for data on how many people of what categories got killed by the police last year and couldn't find anything very straight forward. I did find a couple of interesting articles that point out the problems with gathering and interpreting this kind of date. links for those interested in going into the weeds 2nd link The FBI has some interesting statistics on law enforcement officers killed and injured. (The FBI has interesting statistics on LOTS of stuff.) FBI

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I totally get that traffic stops are dangerous for police officers. If I get stopped, I make sure I have my license and proof of insurance on the seat before the officer ever gets to the car

Be careful with that. I had an officer slide the side of my car with his hand on his gun then got yelled at for what seemed forever because I was reaching in my center consol for my proof of insurence and he didn't know if I was reaching for a gun. Today, I have my hands on the steering wheel from the moment those lights turn on until instructed for those things.

 

[siniang]

Regarding the “few bad apples”

Kumail Nanjiani's Tweet Brilliantly Rejects Idea Of Few ‘Bad Apple’ Cops In Buffalo | HuffPost

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Regarding the “few bad apples”

Kumail Nanjiani's Tweet Brilliantly Rejects Idea Of Few ‘Bad Apple’ Cops In Buffalo | HuffPost

How sad! I am so glad that's on video! That's f*cked up! Don't cops have body cams? How do they get away with lying like this?

 

[joeylittle]

Regarding the “few bad apples”

I think different people mean different things when they invoke "a few bad apples"...context really matters.

Nanjiani's tweet is both right, and wrong. The "wrong" part is, when the Buffalo PD communications office issues a false report like they did...it's most certain that the majority of rank-and-file officers, even if they had reported an issue, would be over-ruled by whoever is higher up the food chain. In other words - a few officials lied; all got blamed.

What he's got right is a pretty heartbreaking thing, and without knowing real facts about who is who in the video it's hard to say for sure...I've seen it from two different sources (so, two different angles) - and it's clear that the guy who pushed is taken aback by the result of his action, and he goes to help the old man. He's yanked back by someone who appears to be more senior, and he's pushed forward. On the other end of the cordon, when the old man falls, they all stop, and you can see some of them trying to figure out what to do. Then, you see what appears to be someone senior to them ordering them to stay in place - which they do - and then march on - which they do.

So, no-one broke rank, and everyone performed their duties as expected.

That's the heartbreaking part. I don't know what went on in the minds of those officers. I don't know how many of them cared, didn't care...And I'm not going to say "were just following orders" like it's an excuse.

But it's a fact that following orders - instructions - is in the fabric of that job. So what I'd hope for is that the more senior officers, the ones who were calling the shots - I'd hope they were held accountable. I'd hope the people responsible for their advancement were held to a higher standard. I'd hope that the Chief of Police could give his officers the training and tools they need, to know how to better handle a single old man approaching their line...because shoving that guy backwards was not the right call.

I just don't think anyone should discount the fact that these are individuals (police) operating within a system, not a collective. It doesn't mean that every single individual is guilty. But the bad actors - bad "apples" - are toxic, and need to be removed from the metaphorical bunch.

And totally as a side note...how one bad apple 'spoils' the bunch, with actual apples. It's a pretty apt descriptor, IMO - because removing the over-ripe (or moldy) fruit will correct the ripening cycle for the still viable fruit.

 

[grit]

This is interesting and timely. And the fact we are all here for mental health issues and can easily talk about all the stigma, limitation, societal gas-lighting that we endure, see others endure, and perpetuate says a lot.
I am not an american and have no horse in their race but I am a human and see something and I would like to share if it is appropriate.

All lives matter but can we talk about Black Lives today. All humans matter but can we talk about women today. All living things matter but can we talk children. We are all the same fundamentally BUT YET we are all different fundamentally. Let that sink before you read my next few sentences.

Every therapist that we have been tells us that life is uncertain. We have to learn how to hold uncertain but not chaos situations. Most of us have traumas that challenged our lives so fundamentally that a lot of us are afraid, avoid, dissociated, angry, or may other ways detached, removed, separated from accepting uncertainty in life....this does not apply just to us on this site but to a lot of people out there too.

Keeping that in mind, this is my take of US. What would USA be without Black people? Simple question really? What other country would be exactly like US without its black people? I ask that question because most of the time, American see themselves as white, with a flag, a gun and a bible. Drew Brees recently said something like I would never respect anyone who knelt during the anthem cause my grandfathers fought for the freedom. It is interesting to note his complete dissociation about the omission or the implication of well those kneeling must not also have a grandfather who fought the war!
My grandfather - who were white fought the war. What does that have to do a black man whose also his grandfather fought the war? This is double bind. Serious brain f*ck. Anyone who has been abused knows this sort of double talk.

I am using psychological words because there are two things: Political and systematic issue for race. US had a war where people were freed, laws were changed and even the constitution was changed. We are not arguing over the fact - was there a racism in US? The fact speak for themselves. Even women were allowed by white men (ultimately) to vote. So we all know oppression has many faces. but I want to focus on the feelings and the human touch rather than the system. There is no argument about racism existing but everybody thinks not here - there...far away.

This is my take of US politics.

You are liberal - you believe there is racism. You also believe black people are different. When you speak with a black person you may use words like I know white people have privileged (the undertone is You do not) and I want to keep the privilege and assist you in any way I can but definitely I do not want to give up the privilege. I know you are different. I am different. It is like dissociation. There is a wall between the belief and the feeling. Quite spasm!
If you ever call a liberal a racist, it is complete psychosis and meltdown. How dare you insult me? I always knew we are different. We will never be the same. Never! but I respect the difference. I just do not see you the same....ad hominem ....double bind if you can find it.

If you are conservative - you believe we are all the same. What is the difference here? If a black person works as hard as my cousin viny, he should be able to buy the truck, the gun, the bible and be just fine like me. I know racism but com'n, there is no racism. We even changed the constitution for this shit like what gazzilion times. We are all the same. Just work as hard as me, do not have eye contact with the police ...I do not even notice them....why are you noticing them? just ignore. Even better do not go out at night...We are the same. it is like engulfment - total over take of black experience to the point of erasure. Black do not exist. Just experiences exist and we all have same experience.
If you ever call a conservative person racist, it does not even register cause what are you talking about? I do not even believe racism. We fix that. So you are just making noises. I am not a racist to a thing that does not even exist. Like I said, be like my old cousin viny who even went to jail and had a business after. Just work hard.

Liberal - complete dissociation but is aware of difference just does not want to completely acknowledge we are all truly human and even there are spaces where a black person may have privilege - just visit Africa for once. and they do and still nope, the dissociation wall is very strong.
Conservative - complete engulfment and erasure of black or all difference even between men and women.

So keeping it all in the feeling, what are the feelings behind this? Liberal is I am sad so I pity blacks. Conservative is there is no blackness. Neither is good. America is like a marriage of codependent and narcissistic couple. There is no solution. Every few years, they would have to blow themselves up and rebuild anew but never reconcile.

I forgot to sprinkle it with the point view of a black person. The projection of the white person's feelings to black america is fear and threat. Did anyone on this site ever felt projection of fear or threat...and what did you do? Did you protest and said NO! or did you fall into deep helplessness... I am not putting up with that. So why are surprised.
Another thing the white culture ( I am trying not to generalize and dehumanize any group so keep all these as some people) they definitely also project their empathy to the blacks and that is depleting and dangerous. and it is almost like I hate black people cause I am so sad. No matter what, when we give our empathy to other groups or others, we are on the verge of acting inhumane.


more than two cents. two dollars.

 

[Ronin]

I'm... not sure these generalizations are that simple, tbqh.

Person's political leanings on any number of issues can be super different and specific issue to issue, and where they stand on racial ones, and how they express it in their lives by acts?

Those are totally different continuums altogether.

Personally not happy about the sweeping partisan generalizations going around in the thread as is.

As... that's so many other issues... and a derail that detracts from the topics of this one.

One can be a liberal and racist.
One can be a liberal and not racist.
And racist in any way, I don't mean the extreme hate crime style forms.

One can be a Democrat and any number of other traits.
Same for those people voting Republican.

Just one trait.
That doesn't have much to do with, pardon the current events pun, the price of eggs in China.

 

[Rainman8772]

Thanks for the information. And since policing is not my profession, I’m aware I can’t speak with authority on the subject. What I‘m seeing, as I go through individual states, that a number of them Des rube deescalation training as separate/distinct from PPCT training. As an outsider, what it looks like to me is deescalation training focuses on levels 1 and 2 of the use of force continuum. There’s also some significant difference in the language used, describing deescalation as a goal vs as one step in a multi-part process describing escalation...

I see the arguments against it, as well. I don’t think it’s a one-sided issue.

I‘d be curious what your thoughts are on This article written by former officer and former DA - I looked hard to find something with a more conservative slant, by people who have real-time experience. But they do a fair job of talking about the complexities.

Great article. Everyone does want to be SWAT because we have better toys to play with. For me I went local as a county deputy. Then changed to state for narcotics interdiction. Then went DEA and joined their FAST team (swat) which at the time was mainly in Afghanistan and South America (2400 days out of 10 years in Afghanistan.) It was more in line with the military since we worked side by side with Army special forces or Navy SEALS to raid Cartel cocaine/meth labs and Afghan poppy/opium/heroine.

At each of those changes I had significantly more training than had I remained simply a deputy. There are tons of academic training and tactics training in all levels with my state and when I went federal. When I was on FAST our then director was a former SEAL so made us go thru SEAL training physically/mentally the hardest I have ever done.

 

[Rainman8772]

I'm... not sure these generalizations are that simple, tbqh.

Person's political leanings on any number of issues can be super different and specific issue to issue, and where they stand on racial ones, and how they express it in their lives by acts?

Those are totally different continuums altogether.

Personally not happy about the sweeping partisan generalizations going around in the thread as is.

As... that's so many other issues... and a derail that detracts from the topics of this one.

One can be a liberal and racist.
One can be a liberal and not racist.
And racist in any way, I don't mean the extreme hate crime style forms.

One can be a Democrat and any number of other traits.
Same for those people voting Republican.

Just one trait.
That doesn't have much to do with, pardon the current events pun, the price of eggs in China.

AMEN

We all have to work together.