News Events around the George Floyd protests and riots, US and beyond

[Mee]

Hm. I find this an interesting stance. I, personally, find them equally guilty. They could have stopped it and chose their career over another humans life. I cannot imagine a scenario where I would value my job over a life. So that, in itself, is an issue with law enforcement.

As baby nurses we are taught to stand up to everything that we don't feel is right, a system where people need to shut up due to heirarchy, even when it results in a death, is not a system I think can protect me.

I actually do see ‘learners’ as vulnerable- Vulnerable also to conditioning and hardening of attitude and being told ‘it’s just real life’. In all spheres. It’s really this divorce from integrity to practice we see everywhere and face in ourselves - as I said -all of us are likely to have contributed to the modern day Slavery situation through purchase choice- Not because we choose to buy because we are conditioned to not question- the whole process of economic production or consider our small expenditure ‘somewhere that doesn’t happen’ as problematic- it is. Likewise / we just don’t see our conditioning here after first red flags are washed out to pale pink - then dull grey .

As a regular patient I KNOW nurses don’t call out worrying things every time- I see it frequently! I think we are conditioned a lot to not tell and that it’s like people tattling on neighbours In nazi occupied countries during wW2 or living on the wrong side of the Berlin Wall.

I think this is partly because of how we deal with problematic behaviour and that progress there would also be useful.

 

[Chris-duck]

I actually do see ‘learners’ as vulnerable

If they're vulnerable. They should not have the power they have. If they're vulnerable, people's lives should not be in their hands. Be adequately trained, and confident in your abilities, or don't be let loose.

As a regular patient I KNOW nurses don’t call out worrying things every time- I see it frequently

Depends. Shitty professionals exist everywhere, but also, worrying to nurses n worrying to patients are two different things.

 

[whiteraven]

Hm. I find this an interesting stance. I, personally, find them equally guilty. They could have stopped it and chose their career over another humans life. I cannot imagine a scenario where I would value my job over a life. So that, in itself, is an issue with law enforcement.

Totally agree with this. You don't just stand by and watch someone kill someone else because you are *supposed to* follow the rules or your supervisor and not question deeply immoral and illegal behavior. That's BS. If you are unable to step out of your role to save a person's life, you absolutely do not belong there. And this only demonstrates the need for intense reform.

As baby nurses weI are taught to stand up to everything that we don't feel is right, a system where people need to shut up due to heirarchy, even when it results in a death, is not a system I think can protect me.

I was going to use this exact example to illustrate. I was charge nurse on a psychiatric unit for a few years and it was very old-style: the unit was locked, we had dangerous patients - actively psychotic, criminal, etc... -, and made regular use of leather restraints and sedation. We were forbidden to complain about methods used there or even discuss them with anyone outside our unit. And there were some horrible things that went on there. I reported every bit of it, first to the head nurse then to the director of nursing. Had I not, I would have been complicit in everything done there.

 

[Chris-duck]

@whiteraven everything you just said. Thank you.

 

[Movingforward10]

I think having empathy for someone who stood by and watched a murder is misplaced empathy.
And also making massive assumptions about why they stood by to watch someone murder someone.
And whatever the reason they did that: someone was murdered and all those police officers were there to protect the public not murder them or watch it happening.

I can go to prison for professional negligence in my profession. I know this. I make sure I act appropriately. I know the law. I assume a police officer does too.....

 

[Chris-duck]

And whatever the reason they did that: someone was murdered and all those police officers were there to protect the public not murder them or watch it happening.

This.

 

[Mee]

If they're vulnerable. They should not have the power they have. If they're vulnerable, people's lives should not be in their hands. Be adequately trained, and confident in your abilities, or don't be let loose. .

I think this is essentially a distillation of the discussion? But my difference here is I think everyone is vulnerable to conditioning and environment .

Is that a fair summation?

I have certainly made errors of judgement and been vulnerable to fear, misinformation, lack of information etc.

@Movingforward10 . I hear you. I was a professional who had strict conduct regulations at one time too . My husband is now. But I can have empathy without agreeing with stances of those I empathise with. Empathy is not endorsement.

 

[user27357]

Hm. I find this an interesting stance. I, personally, find them equally guilty. They could have stopped it and chose their career over another humans life.

@Freida is catching a lot over this, it is a tough situation for those rookies for sure. Yes, I agree with you they aided and abetted a murderer and are not without guilt. To answer your post (@Chris-duck ) I see their choice, during those minutes, not as a dilemma between save alife and lose career vs. aid a murderer and keep my job, but maybe, in copthought ( I am not one, I know and respect many and never saw a bad actor in ten years of responding with them) maybe the choice was more along the lines of possibly allow what may turn out to be a murder and keep my job and my life Vs. stand up and possibly lose both job and life.

Cops have to depend on each other like our soldiers have to depend on each other in wartime. The last thing you need is the people you work with not covering your back because you will die. A rookie might have thought there was a better chance that he might one day be dead because he stood up to (a guy that we all agree was) a bad cop and became the guy no one trusted.

This is not wartime. That knee to the neck cop acted like it was and a rookie might have thought he was in a warzone too. Wrong.

There is no way he could have known the man would die, he might have thought he may die but a superior with lots of experience obviously didn't think so. Again, wrong, but there wasn't a clear path for him to follow without knowing the death was imminent.

He had no idea that this would become a worldwide tragedy with the three guys he was with and himself being in the center ring of the circus. Who would allow that to happen to himself? It doesn't make him any less guilty, but going forward, you can bet that self-preservation is fresh in the minds of every rookie out there and the facet of that little brain nugget that represents"avoid worldwide condemnation" is getting polished and repolished over and over. He would respond differently today, I think. On memorial day he did the wrong thing, for sure.

Again, guilty guilty guilty. But maybe just saying he was afraid to stand up to his superior, so much so that he chose to allow murder over taking a personal career risk doesn't quite cover it.

 

[RubyBlue]

Okay, we can make ten million excuses for the rookie all we want. What about the other guys? They were fully capable of stepping in and not rookies.

 

[user27357]

Okay, we can make ten million excuses for the rookie all we want. What about the other guys? They were fully capable of stepping in and not rookies.

Okay, he has no excuse and I don't intend to give him one. He will suffer and should. Not enough. But before I hang someone (or all of them) I want to get the whole picture. The jurors will get the whole picture, we hope. My posts and others like it are intended to help to possibly paint that whole picture. For all of them, rookie or not.

I think the biggest problem this murder has brouight to light is the problem of multiple complaints not being remedied. Maybe these cops knew mister soon to be living in a cell knee murderer was seemingly untouchable so, ...... After the decision to send him back out on the street was made, the resulting murder lands on the desk of HIS superior in my opinion. And maybe His boss too. This is the result of a lot of bad decisions, most made far from the scene and probably long ago.

 

[siniang]

Because this is a narrative I keep seeing and that's also being pushed by the president: No Sign Of Antifa So Far In Justice Department Cases Brought Over Unrest

 

[joeylittle]

Then you go on to make it personal.....and that's unnecessary......and seriously unkind. I took a break from this post, after reading your post.....to respond....because this was seriously out of character for you........

I don't know how you got that this post I made was a personal attack. I'm talking about the larger conversation about things I hear many white people say. Some here on this thread, many more out in the world. And I wrote my thoughts on those stances. That's it.

Consider rereading before posting your threads on this site so that you aren't consciously or unconsciously offensive towards any forum member who holds an opposing position to yours; and read their entire thread....and don't just don't take shit out of context.

Offensive? I'm disagreeing. If disagreeing and expressing it overtly isn't acceptable on this site, then I've been using the wrong criteria for moderating for a loooong time.

But really, using the "if" word in the front of a sentence as a qualifier (so as to offend (called hit and run) followed by insults which bashed my character. Believing in a cause-any cause- without maintaining respect to everyone, doesn't help the cause. You might want to check your anger level over the topic, your need for control, and and your assumptions about my character.

No. I'm not going to check my anger on the topic. I'm angry, and it's alright that I'm angry. But it's at a much broader audience, and it's at common ways of thinking, not your person or self.

Certainly, nowhere did I bash your character.

Look - it's a really hard topic. I do get it. But the rules of the site apply to all, equally - even me as an Admin. We don't moderate for tone, it's alright to disagree, it's alright to challenge, and it's a pretty wide latitude for all members when it comes to saying what's on your mind.

I think the biggest thing you and I ( @TruthSeeker and @joeylittle ) disagree on is, the inclusivity concept and seeing skin color. I've gotten to some real clarity for myself around these topics as a result of the events of the last week.

For me - I used to try and believe that skin color didn't matter....but I've always struggled to reconcile the very real context - historic, geopolitical context - that is often attached to skin color. And in my own line of work....race and ethnicity do come into the landscape - very similar to how you @TruthSeeker describe your years as a teacher.

I've come to an understanding that a better goal is to strive to recognize humanity alongside recognizing race and heritage - as opposed to leaving behind race/heritage in order to reach a common humanity. That's why I say that skin color does matter. It's allowed to matter. I think that when we (societal 'we') try and 'ignore' it, we are actually dismissing something that can and should be acknowledged and respected, and celebrated. The impetus behind the not seeing color idea isn't malicious - but a seriously unfortunate by-product of it is, it erases a very real part of a person's identity. Their history.

I also don't think US society will get there, organically. So (re: inclusivity), while I don't condone violence, don't like it, don't want it in our streets....I'm not sure how America achieves real racial equality, except through an overt struggle. I feel like there have been more inclusive/softer attempts going on since the 60s...and we're just not going to get there by evolving, we will get there by changing.