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Accused of being narcissistic and manipulative

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Your idea of relationships is somewhat transactional. You say that you go above and beyond with your partners and don't expect anything in return - "just because you love doing it" - but that isn't true. You expect your partner to demonstrate a certain level of affection (or whatever it is you want) back and even frequently list all the things you've done for them to justify your expectations.

This would definitely leave a bad taste in my mouth as I would not have even asked for those considerations in the first place, so to then be told I must "even it out" to some degree is too transactional for me.

And I mean this isn't necessarily *wrong* - most people expect affection in relationships, but I know for me if someone said "I do all this for you and you don't even xyz-" I would peace out. (And regardless of how you go about it, this is what people hear when you speak that way.) I'm not affectionate by nature and I make that very clear up front so we would not even run into this issue to begin with, but others may be less willing to be honest about it (or may not even be aware of it).

The thing about emotions and affection is that you aren't right and you aren't wrong. You have an expectation of how much affection you want so any relationship that doesn't fit that criteria won't be satisfying to you. But it's also not wrong of your partner to be less emotional, either. It's just preference. If you genuinely enjoy doing things for your partner, then do them, but don't bring it up later to explain why you deserve or want something from them.
 
I don't know how to describe this in a succinct way. I guess... I have had a few relationships/feeling out a potential relationship where in my heart and mind and everything, I'm trying to be the nicest person I can be, doing things for my partner/potential partner that doesn't benefit me at all and I ask for nothing in return. Things go well for a while with me being loving and doting and just expecting the other person to act loving and doting in return. Just acting and behaving like they care about me, being thoughtful, empathetic, that kind of thing. When they don't do enough things to make me feel like I'm getting the love and attention I need to be happy (e.g. cuddling in a really present way sometimes, stroking my arm gently - my fav! I'm not asking for them to spend any money on me, or cook me 7 course meals, or do kinky things or whatever) I tell them this and they get super defensive. And if I point out, just as an example, the things I've done for them, just to show I'm not asking for more than I'm giving (just a fraction of it actually) they accuse me of being manipulative. But I'm not really asking for anything beyond the most basic, below minimum level of intimacy and connection that should just be present in any relationship to be able to call it a relationship. I'm not even asking for sex, just cuddles for example. Meanwhile, I do more than anyone I've ever heard of for my partner, just because I love doing it - cooking, massages, buying them nice things, getting their groceries, watching their kids, paying for courses they want to take, etc. plus the usual relationship stuff - compliments, love notes, flowers, cuddles, being very attentive in bed, letting them vent to me at the end of the day, etc. When I'm doing this stuff I'm not thinking about what I'm going to get out of it, it just feels good.

Even now, I tried to reach out to an ex that I split up with 8 months ago just to check in and let her know I still think of her and hope she's doing well and her life is going good and I still care about her as a person and stuff, and I said specifically I'm not sending this to try to rekindle anything or for any other ulterior motive, I just wanted her to know I am in a good place and hold no ill will. I didn't really expect any kind of reply, nor did I word it in a way where she would feel she needed to reply, but she came back quite negative and when I tried to smooth things over she said I was being manipulative. Me trying to be nice wasn't really me trying to be nice, it was trying to change her opinion of me and gaslight her into thinking I was a nice guy because I'm a narcissist. This has been a pattern for me - my ex wife accused me of being manipulative, and when I looked it up online and showed her the articles that listed different kinds of manipulation (monetary, social, sexual, etc) I asked her to show me which I was doing and to give examples because I didn't know I was doing it and wasn't doing it intentionally and if I knew what I was doing I could stop. She said this was also manipulation and gaslighting and stormed off without giving me specifics (after which I kept reading and realizing she did every single one of them, extensively, so not a very healthy relationship there, I just didn't know as I'd never seen a healthy relationship modeled). This was the case with another two women I tried dating briefly - they both would grab onto everything and anything to justify forming a negative belief about me. Eg I told one lady that I got to listen to a really high-end sound system in a sound room and it was amazing - like being immersed in liquid music. And this made me superficial (I just cared about showing off), that I was snobby about sound quality (I'm not, I just appreciate it when it's there), that I don't emotionally connect with the music, just care about technicalities (I do deeply resonate with music), that I'll be a workaholic to afford all these nice things (I'm not), etc. This seems to extend to doing nice things for them - it must mean I'm manipulative and have some agenda. I don't know if I'm just picking the same kind of women over and over or if I'm crazy. Or maybe so many women have had guys that do nice things and then try to take advantage of them somehow. I dunno.

Asking friends, the only thing that makes sense that a few people have said is that no one does all the nice things I do without expecting something in return, so even though I'm doing it because I just like to, they assume I must have ulterior motives. As soon as I ask for anything they grab onto it and are like "Aha! I knew it" even if it's just like "Hey, the last few times you've been over you've seemed really distant, we haven't really talked or cuddled or kissed and when you leave I feel like you weren't even here, what's up?" and they're like "It shouldn't be my job to make you happy!" or "See I knew you wanted something and that's why you were being all nicey nice!". Another explanation is that I attract women who want a "simp" - a guy with little to no self-respect who showers women with praise and money to get in their pants. I have a decent amount of self-respect and if I'm not getting my needs met (which, as I said, are minimal) then I say so in as constructive, kind, positive, non-accusatory way as I can (following non-violent communication practices) sandwiching praise, request, praise, focusing on specific actions, not character traits, that kind of thing. But yeah, I have what I think are healthy needs and boundaries and I advocate for myself.

As my dad left when I was 3, my mom was not someone I connected with (don't want to go into detail about that here), and my first marriage was very unhealthy, and I've been...we'll say 'unlucky' with the people I chose to hang out with (grooming and subsequent abuse) I don't feel like I know how do judge this situation. I don't have a good enough knowledge of what's healthy, what's my fault, how I'm different from other guys, what's normally expected, etc. I'm nice to everyone and super helpful, kind, empathetic, etc. which is what draws some women to me, but I'm mostly an introvert and don't hang out with or talk to friends much (I have some good ones that put up with my long silences). My interests are philosophy and astrophysics and renewable energy and stuff, and I'm probably somewhat on the autistic spectrum, so this relationship stuff is just confusing and giving me a headache. Thoughts or advice? Thanks for reading!
I can’t put my finger exactly on it but it read as if your relationships are very transactional. It seems that you are saying you don’t expect anything in return but then you list all the things you want in return.

There’s a subtle difference between having clear expectations of your needs in a relationships and wanting things in return for what you are giving.

It could also be that you are using giving too much as a way to avoid your own pain. Maybe you are attracting people who really do want to just take take and not give anything in return.

If everyone in your life is giving similar feedback then there is some truth there. You may not be malicious but there’s a disconnect between what you think your intent is and how it is being perceived by others. Do you have a therapist to talk through these things about? It can really help to have an objective person to help learn how to express your needs in deferent ways. If your issues are because you’re picking people who don’t want a two way relationship a therapist can also help.
 
If you have PTSD, you’re narcissistic, by definition. It is a SELFISH disorder. It is ALL about you, & your past. Full stop.

PTSD isn’t about taking now as now. It’s about taking then, for you, as now. That’s -arguably- the most selfish thing possible. Your own reality superseding EVERYONE ELSE’S reality. Worse? Acting on that nonsense. With flashbacks, panic attacks, trust issues, the whole gamut.

Understandable? Sure.
Correct? Hell no.
May I ask you a question for my clearer understanding? According to volumes of research trauma ,childhood or other, can affect a person neurologically. The brain is affected. Does that come to play in calling all of us with PTSD or CPSST narcissistic or does it change that equation in anyway. That in itself, I know , can not be an excuse for behavior and I know in my case I am overcoming reactions with skills I am learning. In fact I am doing so well it scares me. I wonder if It is just the calm before a fall to old reactions. Thanks for your answer in advance.
 
Does that come to play in calling all of us with PTSD or CPSST narcissistic or does it change that equation in anyway.
Nope.

Different disorders have different hallmarks for other people dealing with those, with those disorders. Some common examples?

ADHD people are annoying.
Anorexic people are vain.
Autism spectrum are quirky.
GAD people are drama queens.
OCD people are fussy.
PTSD people are selfish

If you have a disorder? You will hear the same messages, in 10,000 different ways, from zillions of people. The closer the relationship? The more repeat messages one will hear, with half a dozen or so “common gripes” repeated over and over and over. AS WELL AS beloved and adored traits. But we aren’t talking about those right now.

PTSD is an incredibly selfish/ self-centered/ self-involved/ self-absorbed disorder.

Both in very realistic/tangible ways, and “simply” by way of the perception of others; rightly or wrongly, it’s still how many behaviors are interpreted.

So if one has active PTSD? One is going to hear the same messages, from varied sources, in varied ways, over and over and over again. As people are commenting on symptoms & expressions & coping mechanisms very present in one’s life… in plain English… in relation to how it affects them. The same way people with other disorders get the same kinds of feedback on their behaviours.

Which doesn’t mean to ignore it. To the contrary, it gives one a lot more tools to use in their everyday lives, their relationships, their work, etc. Or not. Their choice. As where one chooses to expend their energy is always a highly individual one. But it DOES mean to expect it. Which devalues a lot of outside input / observation.

***

The OP is getting repeated messages that they’re selfish/self-absorbed IE narcissistic… & manipulative.

Well, they have PTSD, so the first bit is most likely accurate.

Especially as they seem to be unaware how incrediably self absorbed most people with PTSD appear to others

***

Can we 2 birds 1 stone it? Maybe. Maybe not.

Manipulative? Isn’t a common thing associated with PTSD… although it is a common thing associated with certain types of trauma; anyone who fawns (in the whole fight/flight/freeze/fawn paradigm) as that’s what fawning is, attempting to manipulate someone else, into whatever; it could ALSO “just” be that their natural inclination/talents/love-languages (clearly acts of service & gifts) are running headfirst into lessons learned in trauma, and being warped, or… IDFK. It gets complicated as f*ck. I’d expect they’re not highly trained master manipulators, (therapists, diplomats, teachers, etc,) or they wouldn’t be so much shocked and offended by the accusation, as embarrassed that it had creeped into their personal lives.

Shrug. Again. Complicated. Which is why I didn’t touch on it, although I might have if they’d responded. The selfish/narcissistic aspect of PTSD is well known/foundational in many regards. The interplay between that and personality, trauma types, life, choices, etc.? Meh. PTSD is simple. Trauma is complicated. Personality intersecting between those two? Almost infinite.
 
that’s what fawning is, attempting to manipulate someone else
🤯 With one of my first therapists on the first day I told her that I was very manipulative and she said, “Thank you for telling me.” That pissed me off, but the reason I told her, I realize in hindsight, was because I was compulsively fawning—which I wouldn’t have a word for until 20 years later. I just felt like a manipulator. I didn’t know about narcissism yet or ego enmeshment. I couldn’t even describe my abuse without drastically discounting and dismissing it so she couldn’t even identify it as abuse. She explained to me what she called “real abuse.” Maybe she wasn’t very good but also times were different 20 years ago. She called me highly-sensitive person. Regardless… thank you for the connection between fawning and manipulation. Along those same lines, enabling is manipulating too, right? And Codependency is two people trying to out-manipulative each other?
 
She called me highly-sensitive person. Regardless… thank you for the connection between fawning and manipulation
A person HAS to be highly sensitive / aware of others and what they need… in order to manipulate anyone. Whether it’s a child that you want to build their self confidence, someone in pain you want to ease their hurt, or a predator you want to protect yourself from.

There is both natural inclination (empathy), combined with skill (practice), that has to marry for even naturals to have effect.
 
There is such a thing as encouraging, altruism out of kindness and right motives. Not all you suggested is necessarily manipulation. If my statement lacks truth than all of us are doomed to live isolated self centered lives. Motive is the key. There is balance in this.
 
I’m seeing a blurry line between manipulation and encouragement
Isn't encouragement (genuine) for the other, but manipulation would be for yourself?

I heard it also once explained that sometimes children raised and rewarded for being selfless can come to expect to be rewarded as adults when they do so.

I apologize for already sying this, different realize this was an older thread, I think the only way is for both people to communicate needs and then come to a mutual agreement. But if you really enjoy doing it, it doesn't require payback. But there could also be other fears involved, perhaps, too?

I think when all is said and done it takes a lot of time and a lot of trust and being genuine to be able to cross hurdles when (not if) they arise.
 
There is such a thing as encouraging, altruism out of kindness and right motives. Not all you suggested is necessarily manipulation. If my statement lacks truth than all of us are doomed to live isolated self centered lives. Motive is the key. There is balance in this.
Manipulation is neutral.

What someone CHOOSES to do with intentionally shaping someone else’s thoughts/feelings/actions is what defines the morality of the situation.

Charm & Harm
Teach & Reach
Direct & Protect

Super rhyme-y, for true, but also super accurate.

When a person deliberately chooses to connect with you? What is their intention? Their motivation? Their end goal?
 
Manipulation is neutral.

What someone CHOOSES to do with intentionally shaping someone else’s thoughts/feelings/actions is what defines the morality of the situation.

Charm & Harm
Teach & Reach
Direct & Protect

Super rhyme-y, for true, but also super accurate.

When a person deliberately chooses to connect with you? What is their intention? Their motivation? Their end goal?
I for one ask myself many times. Why am I doing this? For me it is self awareness. Just because my history is CPTSD does not mean I have to isolate in fear of being under false motives or intent. You bring up some good points and the awareness I think is the first step to healing. You were probably correct in calling out that man’s manipulation. In retrospect I hear what you were saying where I sympathized with his being more codependent with a lack of his being aware of his own core. You were calling him out on being manipulative. Thank you for shedding more light on this idea that manipulation and fawning is part of PTSD and CPTSD.
 
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