Opinions On This Interaction Please!

[doglover]

My mother's behavior can get me very confused. If I'm not careful I will accept her perspective when I don't really need to. I can't tell which way is up sometimes with her. I feel like this interaction is full of assumptions and manipulations - but I have a lot of confusion here, about whether her comments about my behavior ring true.

I apologize for the length of this post. I trimmed it where I can without leaving out things that might be needed in getting your feedback.

I'm asking all of you to help me figure out whether my mother's comments are accurate or whether she is manipulating things.

Context: She treated family to a meal, but then put a stipulation that you had to eat everything - and then she checked the plates of the children at the end to be sure they really did finish their meals. I asked her if she was doing that. She said yes, then came to me and whispered "You spend two hundred dollars on a family dinner and then you get to decide how you handle it." Prior to that, I was using my phone at the table and she chastised me (I'm in my late 20s). When that happened I said yes I am using my phone, I think I'm allowed to decide to do that. She replied with something to the effect of "I have a lot of trouble getting the kids to not text at meals. I'd think you'd want to set a good example." This angered me. So both of those things happened.

Here's a message she sent a couple days after that.

"I'm sorry about Sat. It seemed like everything I did aggravated you. I should have thought about the cost when [XXX] said where she wanted to go. I suddenly thought about it with everybody sitting there & not knowing what they were going to order. Everybody except the 2 little girls ordered reasonably & it was $175. I don't know what to do; I want to keep taking y'all out, but between that & a big Amex bill, I'm having a hard time. Sometimes it's worse because it seems that y'all think I should just spend whatever y'all want & not say anything."

My reply -
"I wasn't aggravated the whole time. Just when you corrected me like a child and assumed I wanted to enforce your rules without asking me. I also wish you wouldn't offer to treat us to something if you're going to hold it over us like this. If the money is such an anxiety for you maybe you could make it easier on yourself by not sharing it.

Busy day. Talk when I have time."

Then I get the following email - 11 days later (I have spoken to her a couple of times in between these messages):

"I was very hurt & upset by your email. Remember that it was primarily an appology. There had been some unpleasant interactions, I wanted to appologize for my part. I can't think of a good word to express this, but I felt I had been edgy or testy or sensitive. You're my daughter & I was attempting to explain to you why I thought I had acted that way. I felt badly about it & was looking for an explanation.

After I gave you a sincere appology, you were mean to me. I was not holding anything over anybody. I should not have to choose between unlimited ordering of food by 8-9 people & never taking y'all out to eat. I take all of y'all out to eat often & I always pay for it. I think the others enjoy & appreciate that. Most families have some guidlines about what you can order when they go out to eat. We need to work on that. I have been very generous financially with all of you. Instead of appreciating it, I get accused of holding it over you (at least from you).

I'm not going to be able to do this much longer. I proably need to cut back & try to pay for what y'all have already spent. However, taking everybody out to eat is the way we celebrate birthdays. I really don't want to stop that because I can't do it much longer anyhow. I'm probably going t have to retire soon anyhow. I'd like to enjoy it while I can.

I think you are probably calling so I can't say you didn't check on me when I was sick. I'm going to leave that up to you. The most difficult or unpeasant part is the pregnant silences. When neither of us is saying anything, you might as well go'"

So now I'm totally confused. I don't think my message to her was particularly mean. Just direct and honest. I'm tired of the strings she attaches to money. I thought I was being assertive in my reply, not aggressive. But now she seems to be trying to hand me a bunch of guilt and trying to justify her behavior.

If I'm not careful I will lose perspective here, so I thought I'd ask the community - do you think my response to her was mean? Hurtful? Seems to me her so-called apology isn't one at all really. It's just words followed by justifying why she was right to do what she did.

 

[Tinyflame]

No, I think it was clear, and not blaming, respectful but direct as to how you feel, and what actions made you feel that way.

I would just say in the future, "I love you, but I am not comfortable going to dinner" (if that is how you feel, knowing the 'consequences', if they will be inevitable).

I believe a gift is just that- no matter who gives it to whom- it is without strings.
I would think that a more accurate reponse on her part (to herself) would be to say, I cannot afford to do that (take everyone at once, etc).
However, there are other options- KFC wouldn't cost 175$, for example. Or to say, in essence, "I have (x$) for treating - let's have some fun!"

I believe referencing 'if'/ 'when' she gets 'sick' etc just puts a passel-load of guilt forward (at least it would on me).

I would say, do whatever you choose in the future- lovingly (and) guilt-free.
JMHO

 

[doglover]

Thanks Junebug! I agree with your thoughts about gifts.

I told her I don't think it will do any good to discuss this since historically we don't make progress understanding each other. She accepted it quickly. I wonder if this was all for attention.

Now I'm really tense. Blarg. I refuse to let her antics ruin my day!

 

[Zipperhead]

I have major issues with being corrected by my mother. Especially in front of my son. My reaction is definately not welcoming, and to some degree far out of proportion to the offense she gives me. But in the end, she lost the right to criticize when a 16 year old moved out of her house. My son will have a grand mother, but she will eventually learn to treat me with repect. And if she doesn't, I will not be there while she visits. So the fact that you also reject your mother's criticism does not surprise me. To be fair though, we really should ensure they understand the ground rules of our relationship before we try enforcing them. And if they can't abide by our rules, so be it. We tried.

 

[maddog]

Hi DogLover. I thought twice, and then three times, about posting the below, because it feels inappropriately presumptuous and judgmental of me to say so, but I'm going to take the plunge and will apologise in advance if this offends or in any way unsettles you.

Truthfully, reading your mother's words, I was reminded overwhelmingly of a 13yo child sniping at a friend in the playground, and certainly not of an adult (and ahighly educated, intelligent one at that) communicating with an adult family member. Truly, I think your direct quoting of her words put the nature of this person and your relationship with her into context better than anything else. This seems like nothing more than blatantly petty, manipulative, toxic and unproductive antagonising and I think you would be well served to engage with it aslittle as possible. I know, trust me, that that's easy for me to say and isn't taking into account the enormous life long context of your relationship, but I can thoroughly appreciate how receipt of this sort of corespondence, which no doubt reflects the nature of her direct interactions with you, can lead you to the sort of confused self-doubting paranoia that can seriously erode your own sense of self worth and self confidence after a while.

I really won't lecture you about setting boundaries with your mother, or all of the associated stuff about your right to your adulthood and her need to take responsibility for her own life. I know that you know these things intimately well and that every person's journey to reconciling those things is different. But please, in whatever small way you can, find a way to press the metaphoric delete button in your brain when correspondence like this reachs you, because there is no rational sense to be made of it, no constructive outcome to be achieved and only hurt and self criticism to be experienced by wallowing in it. I think you stated your position clearly in your first correspondence and nothing further is required. I imagine she'll have moved on to the next topic of petty competition in no time at all anyway, so I do hope you can let this go in whatever way that you can.

Again, sorry if this was intrusive or tactless, it just really disgusts me to see adults behave in such a way, and to know that the behaviour reflects a lifelong pattern of this kind of treatment towards children... ug!
MD

 

[doglover]

To be fair though, we really should ensure they understand the ground rules of our relationship before we try enforcing them.

That's a good point. I've set boundaries with her before. I don't think she listens. Sometimes I forget to enforce them because I'm used to average people considering my boundaries. Plus, a lot of the time she breaks my rules in really insidious ways that I can't even quite tell count as breaking them.

I don't know. I'm so tired of dealing with her crap. But not quite ready to just push her out of my life. Even though that would make it easier. Thank you, it helps to know I am not the only one who has trouble with this kind of relationship.

sorry if this was intrusive or tactless

no, your post isn't tactless to me at all, or wrongly judgmental from where I'm sitting. I am not so loyal to her that I don't hate her when she behaves like that. I teared up a few minutes ago, thinking about my sister's choices in life and connecting them to these dynamics. Her fallout from this behavior is just more externalized than mine. I feel for the both of us.

After my conversation with my mother earlier I was yelling obscenities to myself, and talking to myself - reminding myself it is okay to be angry with her. I don't often let myself think about just how deep the impact of a lifetime of this bull has been. Because it hurts so much when I go there.

Honestly, it seems it only happens when she isn't getting her way. But where some of my family members take to appeasing and placating her, I just don't have the stomach for it. I have to be true to myself, and if her actions feel wrong to me I can't lie and tell her she's right.

I almost want to email her again to say you know, if you wanted some attention you could have just called me. I don't have to be the one to call all the time. I don't think for a second you're really "upset" by what has passed between us lately. I think you are just pouting because you can't control me as well as you used to.

She probably thinks I am punishing her for something. I'm not. I'm just sick of her crap!! And feel I owe it to the child inside of me to retrain her a bit whether she likes it or not.

I think I will tell her that I am not going to discuss issues between us in a "who's right" fashion. If she doesn't want to talk about her own feelings, in a responsible way, without assigning blame or guilt, then we won't go there.

===
I can't thank y'all enough for being there to support me and respond to my question about which end is up in that conversation with her. You helped me trust myself and my perceptions just a pinch more, and I'm incredibly grateful for that.

 

[wife of]

I must agree the bit about the cost sounded like manipulation to me,maybe if your all going out again you could all prearrange to share the cost or as mentioned above get take out and maybe take a ball to the park or similar.

I can Identify with the no phones at the table bit though,maybe excuse yourself from the table and go outside for a call?

But that might just be me being British,we all have a big stick where the sun don't shine in relation to table manners...lol

 

[maddog]

Once again being very blunt DogLover, the problem I see with your intended response to her from here is that you ae basing your decision making and planning on the basis of dealing with a rational adult who is capable of being rebuked and of receiving constructive criticism in a similarly constructive way. Honestly, I just think you're giving too much credit to the likelihood of being able to rationalise a solution or a mutual "stalemate" to this situation.

Was she merely looking for attention rather than any genuine compensation for perceiving she'd been wronged? Most likely, yes. Which is why perhaps the most effective response would be to dish out a helping of good old emotional deprivation and leave that perpetual need for emotional pampering unmet. She's a psychologist... she understands such things... how bout a dose of her own patented medicine.

It just angers me to have to see you go through this crap day after year after chapter of your life. By now you deserve to be free of what can only be described as a human knoose around your neck.

MD

 

[ClairBear226]

But now she seems to be trying to hand me a bunch of guilt and trying to justify her behavior.

Yup. Pack your bags, we're goin' on a guilt trip!

It's possible that she doesn't understand that this is what she's doing, but the outcome for me would be the same reguardless. Set the boundary and stick to it. Period.

If money were truly the issue, she could have suggested potluck get togethers ages ago. She sounds intelligent enough to have come up with that suggestion. There's no reason why everyone couldn't bring something so you could be together and enjoy each other's company. You could even rotate who's house the get-togethers are hosted in. But that would mean she'd have no control over the situation whatsoever, wouldn't it? Can't have that, now can we? She wouldn't be able to check anyone's plates, or dictate the table rules, or comment multiple times how much money was spent. If you really want to set a good hard boundary, something like that might be exactly the way to go.

If it makes you feel any better, my mother just tried to lay guilt trip on me this week too. It was quite inconvienient for her that I was in the hospital with my daughter who was having an appendectomy, rather than home, where she wanted me to be. Rather than the desired effect she was hoping for, it only proved what I already knew. Want to be a good mom? Do the polar opposite of her.

 

[wife of]

I don't know wether this has any bearing on things,but does your mother live alone?

I have found that since losing my dad mum has become very reliant on myself and although she is a lovely person generaly she will on occasion chuck in the odd little guilt trip.

For example she knows how hairless I am right now with the hubby in hospital but she told me tonight how she was going to go and get some "heavy" shopping but was unable to go as she felt a little queasy.

Expected reaction was for me to say "I'll come over and take you in the car tomorrow" but I chose to pretend it didnt register and changed the subject.

 

[missd84]

Doglover, I am also in my late 20s and your relationship reminds me a lot of the one I have with my mother. I have come to the conclusion that she needs to control someone and cannot empathize with others. Her apologies are always followed by justification or the word but. If it's not that, then it's deflecting the blame off of herself and projecting it onto me. I have tried to discuss this with her to no avail. Someone else said it best, in this case, your mother isn't rational and your relationship with her is toxic. Maybe limit the contact for awhile if you aren't ready to cut her out completely. I definitely know that's easier said than done. I'm pretty much on a "visit my dad and ignore my mom completely while I'm there" plan.

 

[Girl3]

When I was 20 and my mother puched me in the face and knocked me out, accusing me of something that I didn't actually do - I calmly told her that if she EVER his me again, I would kill her. That was apron string one snipped.

When my daughter was three and wanted her hair long and no bangs, my mom cut my daughter's bangs - terribly and crookedly - because she felt they were in her eyes. I said fine - you will never see your grandchild again if you do anything else that is solely in the purview of a parent. Apron string two cut.

If grandma doesn't want to spend 175.00 then she shouldn't offer to take y'all out. Southern women, Jewish women and Catholic women seem hell-bent on manipulating their kids with guilt. I won't tell you which of those slots i belong to - but I totally get it.

By the way - an apology is a short simple I did such-and-such-wrong and I am sorry. There are no caveats. No qualifiers. No threats. You didn't get an apology. You got an explanation for bad behavior.