Relationship With Beloved Child Who Condones Abuser

[Nicolette]

Studies have shown they have the most difficulty in finding an male adult identity.

Dare I also say that while your late husband was a good father in your eyes, the fact of the matter is, in your son's eyes he still didn't protect him (which parents are supposed to do to their children/step children). While I get your explanation and reasoning for your late husband taking a step back, when your Ex abused your son, your son would have not known or understood that so he has grown up with a skewed perception of a male/father/husband.

I'm sorry if what I say hurts your feelings... it is not intentioned to do so.

 

[ms spock]

I never told my son what a jerk his father was and then when I did, he didn't believe me. The problem is that I could never tell off his father ... because if I did anything to anger him, he would take it out on my son.

Damned if you did and now damned because you didn't.

That's why I have written nasty notes in response to refusals to pay for tuition, etc. but then he takes it out on my son - really bad.

So it is interesting your son is comfortable being in such an abusive relationship with his father. Hmm.

We talked about his marriage, children and any future involvement. I feel very strongly that a man that raped me and did so much harm to my other son as well as this son should not be part of my life. So if he wants a wedding or children to come in contact with this toxic man, then I can't continue to be part of his life.

I agree that you can't go to a social occasion with a man that raped you that is unreasonable.

But another strategy is to say. "Okay I can't be around a man that raped me or whatever," and organising something separate. I know I wavering from my original line. I am just thinking that as you do your family of origin work that you might come to some different understandings. You must have withstood a tremendous amount of abuse in your family to put up with and live with so much abuse and violence from your son's father.

On the other hand, you know what watching the next generation getting abused will only do your head in. Either way this is going to be very, very painful.

So at least if you are getting out now - if your son one day wakes up - he will have you to come to or your grandchildren will have you to come and see.

We talked about me writing my ex a scathing letter (finally) and telling him off just once but my son said that it would ruin his life.

This is rather an odd response. It is also a little bit of a worry. He is really enthralled/intimidated by his father's abusive ways.

Your son is being held at emotional ransom by your ex husband. I imagine going to see him would have been pretty scary to do as a kid after what he had see happen to you.

Well, this man already did major damage to my life so it's his choice. If my ex chooses to take out his anger on my son if I tell him off and my son is angry at me for telling him off, I'm sick of this. I want to tell him off once and for all and never have anything to do with him. For goodness sake, the family all have been in prison and are addicts. If my son chooses to have this family instead of me, then he must not think much of me

I think you have it totally wrong. You loved him and cared for him. But you were abused. You were raped. Even when a new man came on the scene, your son was not protected, his father was able to beat his step dad up as well. He is not choosing not to be with you. He is choosing not to be a person (like you) who will be abused: sexually, physically, emotionally or otherwise.

The child part of your son might be thinking that by having a relationship with your ex husband that he is protecting you in some way, and perhaps, in that magical thinking that keeps kids in abusive situations alive, your son is thinking that by having a relationship with his father - he is protecting him self as well.

He has only had two choices modelled to him victim or abuser. He is scared of his father and is probably not in an adult state when he is with his father. He is trying to be good for his daddy so the abuse stops.

I take it his father had unsupervised access to his son?

 

[ms spock]

...while your late husband was a good father in your eyes... in your son's eyes he still didn't protect him (which parents are supposed to do...)...your son has grown up with a skewed perception of a male/father/husband.

I was thinking of how to say this diplomatically.

Dear Gloria,

It might be a good idea to sit down with your T and write down all the ways you condoned
your abuser/ex husband without meaning to of course. You have terminated you abusive
biological family so there is a can of worms there for you.

You didn't protect your son from his father. Your next husband didn't protect your son.
Your abuser/ex husband was allowed to beat up your son's new step father.

You could look at the ways in which you could have protected your son from seeing, hearing,
witnessing, copping the brunt of and watching you being abused. I am most certain that you
did not do this on purpose. You were trained by your family to put up with abuse and a tremendous
amount of it if you adult life is any indication.

You may unwittingly condoned your abuser/ex husband in your son's eyes without realising it of course.

You were unable to protect your son from protracted violence so you need to look at your self with compassion and your son with compassion. In one sense you are both completely in the same situation.

ms spock

 

[intothelight]

I am just going to share something here and take it at face value. It is different from other experiences, but also the same in many ways.

Last year, my two youngest girls chose to testify against their bio-dad who sexually abused them during visitation. He was found guilty by the jury and then the sentencing hearing was scheduled. In attendance at that hearing was my oldest daughter and myself. The two youngest were worn out from the trial, plus the press was all over this and they didn't need to be on the evening news.

When the sentencing started, the defense is allow to enter mitigating circumstances as an attempt to get the lowest sentence possible. One of the pieces of evidence they gave to the judge was a letter from my son (their brother) stating how the court should be merciful "because he was a good father, that worked hard, but suffered from alcoholism...". I cannot convey the shock or hurt that letter caused.

I sent my son a letter basically stating I wanted him out of my life completely and whether he had a relationship with his sisters was entirely between them; but I was done. But then there was more to the story. See my son sexually abused his oldest sister. Much of that letter was the feelings he had about what he did as a child, and his own plea for leniency. But he was not on trial, and his emotions were all mixed up.

His sisters were not the only victims of abuse. He was also. These issues had to be addressed by this family, I had to understand where the sentiments in that letter were coming from, and I had to be open to listen and try to understand his own pain. This has not been easy and the relationship between Don, myself and his sisters is one of slow healing.

With my son, I will not enable or condone his substance abuse. I expect him to get the help and treatment he needs to work through all of this. His apologies are sincere and he knows that he is forgiven. We cannot undo the past but only work towards a better and more healthy future.

When there is abuse in families, it affects each person differently. Each person has to face what happened and then assess the personal damage it caused. They need to take accountability for what they are responsible for and stop taking accountability for those things they are not responsible for. This is far easier said than done.

For me, I needed to step outside my own hurt and listen with an open mind. As Paul Harvey said.."Now for the rest of the story." I wish there wasn't more to the stories, but there always is. If there is honest communication and open-mindedness healing can take place. But no one has to keep being abused, so find the truth and set the boundaries. Also set boundaries until everyone is telling the truth. Bottom line, stop the hurt; but allow for the healing.

Hope this doesn't offend. That is not my intent. Just a piece of my life that I thought I should share.

 

[ms spock]

Dear Gloria,

I know how hard you work and how hard you worked for your sons. I feel for you so much.

Unfortunately when you grow up in an abusive family you are trained to train other people to treat you badly. I have been in any number of bad, abusive and so forth relationships.

I really feel for you.

I tried to put something nice on your wall.

ms spock

 

[mamachick]

After reading the recent responses, I realize how much I overlooked as there are really good responses here.
Temperment is biological, while character may have biological factors, it is influenced by environment. Some of what you are describing sounds like his temperment. I agree with Nicolet, he is not your ex, and while you may see some of his behaviors have been influenced by his father, he also has had the advantages of his relationship with you and your good modeling as a parent.

I know that you have been so deeply hurt and scared my this horrible mans behavior, and you have witnessed your oldest sons pain and trauma as well. As a parent, I know the guilt of feeling like we did not protect child or self. We did the best we could, and have every right to be angry at that person. I think the emotional part of us thinks that when this child matures, they will see what an awful person the father was and out of loyalty and respect, not have anything to do with them. However, that is often not what happens. I do think that they will do it on their own time-if ever. But that is not up to us. It has to be their decision without the pressure from the "good " parent or other family members.

I dont know how close he is to marriage and having children, but I would not want to attend anything with my ex that was the same as yours. I would have to really weigh how I would deal with the situation.. I could make a plan to attend but with support of close friend, more likely I would have to come to terms with making the decision of not attending but without anger. I would explain that it would just not be good for me to do this, and then accept that I am missing this event because it is "their day" and I would want them to have that person there if they wanted them there.

Kids take their frustrations out on those who they feel the safest with. My oldest daughter was horrible to me at times, but would never smart off to her dad who talked to her horribly. As they grow up, they need to find a better way to deal with their frustrations, and by 28, it is not acceptable that he is rolling his eyes, etc. IMO, setting some (specific) boundaries regarding his behavior sounds long overdue.

You can practice tough love without loosing your son. If you put the squeeze on him, giving him an ultimatum, you may loose him. If you explain exactly what he does, how you feel, and your expectations, with a plan of the action you will take if it does not stop, you are setting a boundary in regard to the way he treats you. (ex; if he starts yelling at you, he needs to leave immediately.). You deserve to be treated with respect by your grown children.

Honestly, I do think the best thing that you can do is to allow him to chose the path he takes with his father and let the cookie crumble as it will, with as much support as possible, but dont give more than you can handle.

I hope you re-consider divorcing him. I have not heard from my youngest daughter in 3 and a half years. She was 18 and was consumed and controlled by her mormon boyfriend. I gave untimatums out of anger. She left and I have not heard from her since. I wish I could take back my words that were caused by fear. She married him within months(no family was permitted to attend her mormon wedding) and had a baby that just turned 2 at thanksgiving. I have only seen pictures on facebook. Her husband forbids contact. I miss her horribly. Please think seriously about this.

Please know that I also dont want you to feel hurt by what I am saying, I have a good idea or what you are experiencing due to my own experiences. I only want you to have the good that you deserve. I will support you no matter what you choose Gloria, I hope you know that. Sending you hugs

 

[The Albatross]

I had an adult relationship with both my mother and father til is death. My mother did not discourage an adult relationship and even, somehow, chose to maintain a by phone relationship herself with my father - though only several times a year. (Lord I don't know how I could have ever done that with a man who sexually abused and beat me the way he did her, but she did it.) When he died, she projected a lot of feelings onto me. I wanted us to work through the hurt on both sides in therapy together so I would still be able to have a better relationship with my mother. I can acknowledge that there are times that it is difficult to converse, and just enjoy each other because we both find our mannerisms triggering for each other. But my situation is different, than yours Gloria because my mother lives independently.

I expect that if we were living under the same roof, we may both have some of the the same feelings that you do. Though difficult, we have been trying to work through a more mutually beneficial set of "ground rules" and are trying to be more respectful of each other. I recognize though, that sometimes she, sometimes I, sometimes both of us are not as successful as we'd like to be.

My father was both of our abusers... though somehow, she never once suggested that neither I or my brother stop our relationship with him (for myself, once I left the area and joined the military and I reestablished a regular contact 1 time a week and a visit once every couple of years).

I realize though... that your situation Gloria is different, because your sons are living with you (right?) and also that there has recently been cause for concern because of suggestions of assisted living or a nursing home. That is I think, at the crux of the matter... a healthy fear of losing your independence when you have strived and sacrificed for your sons. That is a legitimate concern ... and combined with the realization of the rekindled relationships to the father and his family, the hypervigillance is now scanning for threats. (I'm just trying to relate the way I'd react.)

Like I said, I think it's great that your sons are going to therapy with you... I would have liked to do so with my mom... but we are both genuinely and delicately trying to be respectful and avoid being insensitive to each other. I think that it could have been easier for both of us to process and do with therapy.

My own fear, is that as my mom ages and her health (not very good) continues to decline (she is 70)... is that her OCD type anxiety will increase and if we don't get on track and rectify issues on both sides, it will be more difficult to be able to provide care for her and assist her in her independance when she isn't able to meet her needs on her own. That's another reason, I think this time for your family can be important, and hopefully mutually beneficial for you and your sons. I know it sure would have been a lot less stressful and dicey if it was mediated by a therapist.

(((Hugs for you Gloria))) I hope there is something useful in my thoughts for you all.

 

[The Albatross]

I guess in my rambling above, I was trying to get down to ... the family dynamic with you and your sons has changed. Feelings are coming up on all sides... and I think it's far better to work through it as a family in therapy (since they are agreeable and went) than it is to disown them... mediation can help find a mutually beneficial way with recognition that there are old familiar ways of behaving that are no longer useful moving forward. (My own eye rolling, stopped... but Gloria I admit, sadly, that I was in my 40's. With counseling, I think I'd have quit much sooner if I realized how hurtful it was to my mother.)

I applaud you Gloria for being proactive, and working through this with your sons and your T. You're feelings are valid, as are your fears... and I'm glad that you have a safe place to express them here. I can "get it out" here, on the forum, clear my head, and then make decisions in real life... I think that's helping me to stay a bit more rational and my home life is a lot more calm. I think that's a good thing.

 

[Loloma]

((((Gloria))))

It is mind boggling how many people suffer physical and sexual abuse by so called loved one. The repercussions have a ripple effect that can go on generation after generation. Everyone has their own way of dealing with this and finding the correct way is difficult. To start with what is that anyway?

A lot of very good advice has been given here that I totally agree with. Hurt, pain and confusion can cloud our judgement, and perhaps put us in a position where we cannot be objective with our children. They to have suffered through this abuse and in turn are also confused, angry and have massive problems of their own. Getting them to choose sides is not a good option.

The reason I am saying this is that I was raised, well in a manner of speaking in an extremely abusive family. My father sexually abused all his children, girls and boys. In turned the boys abused the girls. My mother knew what was happening the did nothing, she was the violent one but suffered from schizophrenia. Putting it mildly she was a real nut job who's only way of dealing with things was to inflict severe violence on the weaker children in the family, myself in particular. A lot of what happened resulted in deaths, suicides, alcoholism and chronic illnesses.

I married my first husband who was a combination of my mother and father, so he continued on where they left off. He sexual and physically abused me for years and when the boys were born, he physically and mentally abused them. They are now adults, and everyone of them has problems with their relationships, including failed marriages. Each has several children to different mothers. They all hate their father and blame me a lot for the crappy childhood they had. However I never made them choose between their father and I.

My middle son hates him with a vengeance as he suffers from epilepsy. He says his father caused it from bashing his head on the wall constantly. Two of the boys have been in therapy in their teens. The eldest does associate with him for business reasons, and sort of feels sorry for him. The X remarried years ago and is now "a different man". We call him Mr Wonderful now.

What I am trying to say is that you can't change the past, your X or your son's way of thinking. He has to figure it out for himself. You do not have to put up with the abuse from your son. He has to know it's unacceptable, even if that means you need to cut contact for a while. As long as you except his abuse he will keep doing it, because that what his dad did. I had to do that with two of my son's. It was a painful time but it shocked them enough to change their behaviour.
Stick with it Gloria, be strong and stand up for yourself. There is immense support and love here. Loloma

 

[anni]

I'm really proud of you, too, for writing this thread Gloria. I know it can't have been easy because you have worked so hard and incessantly to make some kind of peace in your life and family. Gosh, you can see there are many. many people who care immensely, have answered and wish to support you. It seriously gives me chills when the forum steps up like that, when a member is in such pain and conflict. I so much hope that doesn't come across as patronizing-it's not meant that way at ALL. It's sheer respect for you and everyone.

When you're SO close to something, have worked so incredibly hard it's tough to see what others can so clearly. It's one of the reasons the forum IS so helpful. There seems to be a vast amount of experience, unfortunatly given its content in pain, with what you're going through. I hope you can read it all with balance and some acceptance where you know it's relevant, able to ascertain there's an awful lot of peace in the end for you here. A lot of it is but you know that. It's time to reclaim a lot, including your teeth. In my opinion, that would be part of being SO close to the situation it's tough to see how far things have slipped, you know? All your teeth have to be pulled for heaven's sake, bottom line because of 'all that', for one thing. From the outside looking in? It's time my kind friend.

I have 2 adult sons whose father was beyond disrespectful to me. He wasn't THE abuser, merely your run of the mill asswipe who continued to be that as an ex. They have some contact with him, make zero pretense of overt friendliness or support for him in any way. Ever. Neither are they hostile, they just own who is and what he did to me both 'then' and over the years. It does not have to follow that the asswpie ex is The One whose affections are sought after. These sons also were way too familiar with THE ex, their stepfather at the time unfortunatly and if he hadn't had the good fortune to become deceased on his own would have happily hastened his departure from the planet according to them. It makes me happy he did manage to pop off when he did since I have zero desire to visit them in prison.

One son does occasionally slip into the ex's mien, it's horribly hurtful but there's no choice except to not speak until he turns back into an actual human. It's less frequent, as in MUCH over the years. His father's example has been one of deterant if you'd ask him. He SELF corrects, sees a therapist, just did it again over the holidays out of concern for ME. He didn't want me to have one more stressful thing on the list so awfully nice to know.

We're with you. Please do keep posting and sharing, MUCH hugs,

Anni

 

[Gloria]

Dare I also say that while your late husband was a good father in your eyes, the fact of the matter is, in your son's eyes he still didn't protect him (which parents are supposed to do to their children/step children). .

Dear Nicolette,
I'm terrified of quoting because I have gotten in trouble so many times but this time, I do have to quote and reply. My ex was beating up my son on Mondays (his day off) when I was at work and still married to him. My husband NEVER allowed anyone to touch me or my sons. But he had arms that were huge and my ex was a scrawny guy and my husband knew that he could kill him so he didn't fight back when my ex went after him. But he was furious when my son would come home and tell him things like "Dad calls me a fat ass". He was livid. I don't take offense in your views. In fact, the reason I haven't done anything all these years is because I do know that I am the parent and he is the child. But I am now seeing how I am enabling my son to deny the abuse and to treat me like his father. I do thank you so much, Dear Nicolette and I do understand where you are coming from. This is a very controversial subject that I brought up. I think it brings up a lot of stuff for many of us.
Hugs,
Gloria

 

[Gloria]

Well, I didn't have to bring ear plugs yesterday for the other people in my therapist office. I was much calmer but still not sleeping. I'm so glad this post because Ican't thank all of you enough for helping see the different aspects of this.

Scared of Lonely really resonated with me. Ever since I was a child I would get these uncontrollable fits of anger when my half-brother (who was sexually abusing me) came over. I never knew why. I have been writing Annie for a long time now and I do it early in the morning. This is what happens almost every morning. I am feeling pretty good and then my son comes and rolls his eyes and asked me how much I paid for something and it's like I have my ex living with me again.

Yesterday, in therapy, my son said I was controlling. I asked him to give one example and he couldn't. But when he was in college and other times, I would send a note to my ex asking for him to share the burden. My ex would take it out on my son and be very abusive so my son would get so angry at ME!! I was the problem because I wanted his father to pay part of his tuition as dictated in the divorce decree. So because my son was controlling me, I would drive junky cars and sacrifice to pay all his tuition myself. It's been happening since he was a kid. He would get angry because I couldn't afford to buy him something but if I dared to call his father to ask him pay child support, he would ream my son and my son blamed me.

Well, it's very clear to me now. I am calmer and this will be over with soon. I am writing my ex a letter - the letter that I wanted to write him for years telling him how he devastated my oldest son by rejecting him and beating and verbally abusing him. I am writing him a list of all the thing that he did and that now that my youngest son is an adult (we hid it from him) that he should be aware of.

I am asking him (giving him the opportunity to take responsibility for his past actions and try to make amends and also to never come near me again. I want him to make it up to my oldest son whom he calls "weird" and taught my youngest to hate because "your brother is a weirdo". Well, maybe my oldest wouldn't have been so weird if he acted like his father. When my son came home crippled from the Army, he could have at least called him.

Actually I am a licensed and trained negotiator and my T and I decided that we will use my rational negotiation techniques to solve this. I am writing down what I really want which is that I want my son to validate my efforts and to acknowledge the abuse of his father. ScaredofLonely, you really hit the nail on the head. I am tired of my son's denial. I do understand and empathize that my ex was abusive and there is this thing that abused children do when they have an abused parent. The children try harder and harder to please that parent and gain that love. I know. I am that child also. I sympathize with my son because all he wants is to be "normal" and denies he has a brother and is ashamed of me because as his father says "I come from a family of crazy people".

So Monday, I will present my letter (editing all the filty language!!!:eek: Darn!!!) It is a respectful letter asking this man (my ex) to do the right thing. My son does not want me to send him this letter but he doesn't control me anymore. If his father calls him up or is abusive to him, that is my ex is an ass and he can't be angry at me for this - not this time.

Then I will again try to come to a agreement. I ask that I do not ever to see the man - at his wedding or ever. I ask that my future grandchildren will only have very limited exposure to the ex-convicts, addicts and his other relatives from his father's family.

My son is in denial. When I hospitalized in a mental ward, he didn't care about me. The only thing he talked about was "Now, I have a mother who is a mental patient, great!!". When I was sick recently because I got my teeth knocked out and developed an abscess and got very sick, my son just criticized me for not having dental insurance and I had to explain over and over how I had tried to go clinics. I'm tired of this "critical parent" that is constantly abusing me. (Transactional analysis - he is playing the part of a critical parent)

So tomorrow, we go back to the therapist. I will try to be fair but I'm not rolling over this time and like Annie says this forum and my "family" (because my friends on the forum are my family of choice) has changed my life. This situation has caused me so much depression and loss of self esteem for so long but thanks to this forum, so many of my issues have gotten resolved and don't bother me any more. So in a way this forum is sort of a miracle of love.

My oldest son's face filled with tears when he talked to me about the beatings the other day is still clearly in my mind. I will not spare my youngest son's feelings and sacrifice my self esteem. I think that by standing up to my ex, my oldest son will understand that I didn't know and I feel so bad that I didn't protect him. He never told me until a few years ago. My ex threatened to beat me if he told me about the beatings so he was protecting me. My oldest son is so gentle and kind and the only time that he ever got into a fight in school was to protect a boy who was being bullied in the locker room.

So thank you so much! I really hope that this thread has helped others in the same situation understand the dynamics of this. It's complicated but it pisses me off so much because it is so common. It makes me angry that not only do we grow up in an abusive family, marry abusive spouses but then it keeps going on with our children. But I am going to make sure my oldest son and I let go of this and resolve this.

Much love and positve energy and prayers to everyone!!
Gloria