News Upside To Trauma?

[Eleanor]

Saw this in the NYTimes today

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/m...y-positive-flip-side.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

Kind of fluffy, clearly doesn't really understand what PTSD is (why should it be surprising to me that a reporter doesn't "get it?" Of Course they don't. Duh. Beat head against wall.) REALLY doesn't get treating PTSD (implies it is mostly about drugs - or so it reads to me). Interesting, if you can keep reading past the fury at sending folks with PTSD (medicated! no less) back into combat theatre... But interesting. Wonder what Seligman et al have them doing?

On the one hand I think the idea of resilience training is a super idea. On the other hand I kind of worry that it might turn out to be a "razor blades in the hands of monkeys..." situation.

 

[TLight]

I say having PTSD does make you value things more, the tiniest of plants, the most vulnerable of children, and being kind......knowing what unkindness has done to you.

However, that being said, PTSD in exchange for these things is no 'deal.' I think they can be cultivated in other ways if one wants a deeper life. But the hell of this disorder is definately not worth the upsides........no matter how good they are. You still have PTSD.
Just my humble opinion looking back at 47 years of PTSD and a shattered freaking life, one not worth living really, just surviving.

Yeah, I've grown, I'm extremely compassionate, concerned about others feelings, and don't take a moment of peace for granted...ever. But I still have PTSD and it is a living hell to manage.

Not buying it. I sort of feel like it minimizes the suffering we are going through.

 

[sea]

Glorification and romanticism about suffering bothers me to no conceivable f*cking end. Suffering is not pretty or meaningful or poignant. It's shit and it sucks. It is a tidal wave and everyone is trying not to be f*cking buried.

 

[Tinyflame]

Like sea said, if 'suffering' was as romantasized and matter-of-fact as that people wouldn't avoid it like the plague. It's not pretty, or comfortable, or even socially-acceptable. (Let alone in some peoples' minds, 'contagious'.)

I agree with TLight, it's brought an awareness of all those things. Unfortunately they seem to be lacking a grasp in the article between normal trauma versus the aftermath of ptsd. If someone said it's unrelenting, would they then understand? Of course it would change one's perspective on life, and death, spirituality, relationships, 'meaning', how could it not. Unfortunately, most 'normal' people don't have a clue 'why' you see things the way you do, let alone understand why you feel the way you do.

 

[intothelight]

I read the article and should probably read it a few times. But the main point that struck me, was the focus on perception. I may be wrong, but isn't that what cognitive behavioral therapy is all about? It is learning to think about and perceive traumatic events in a different, more realistic, and less damaging way.

I think when the article was referring to individuals who had an "episode of PTSD" it was probably something else. (Can't remember what the official terminology is right now.) PTSD seems to have a spectrum, just like any illness, with some having a case that is more severe than others. In reality, most of us here are extremely resilient just to be alive and functioning at all.

Yes, I think there can be post traumatic growth, but I think it has the same principles as CBT. For example, learning not to blame yourself or feel guilty for the trauma. Retraining your thinking so you no longer take the blame and put the blame where it belongs; and freeing yourself from the guilt and feelings of self-worthlessness that come with it. Not sure one can always find the "good" in it, but at least the perception is more realistic than the negative thinking associated with PTSD.

Just my .02

 

[Tinyflame]

Yes, I think if one can find it a 'positive', well (also) better that!

I am guessing, perhaps who knows, if it weren't for having it we wouldn't be where we should be, or even make the choices we have, or have met the people we have, etc.
For example, (possibly, amongst other things), Anthony wouldn't have made this site, Anthony and Nicolette may not have met, same for you Deb and PH, and on it goes (for myself here included).

I think of my dad, who I don't know if he had undiagnosed ptsd, but all the 'ear marks' of it and certainly a history capable of producing it, and he made very ethical decisions, at high cost to himself. Odd thing was, after he died literally 100's of people (virtual strangers) came forward to mention his practical help, to get them work, to save their marriage, to help them quit drinking, to not commit suicide (literally, more than once). Not once had he mentioned it. But perhaps he helped (or could) because he 'got' it.

 

[sea]

Not sure one can always find the "good" in it, but at least the perception is more realistic than the negative thinking associated with PTSD.

For me, that is sort of like saying "There is a positive side to having cancer. You can get chemotherapy."

There are ways to manage PTSD and to begin to learn to deal with the negativity associated with it, but you are always working hard to eliminate something negative - it is not an introduction to something positive. And usually the therapeutic process for that is extremely painful.

Some people go through periods of character development after receiving bad news but in my opinion that is more about the person than it is about the suffering. And I hesitate to mention that anyway because it's like this belief everyone has that just because you're suffering, that makes you a good person who has automatically learned the true meaning of Christmas, or whatever. And the truth is most people are just tired and pissed off.

 

[Eleanor]

I have learned to approach anything in the media about PTSD with Very Very Low Expectations. For example, NPR had a story the other day which the intro said was about Vets with PTSD - but was just a kind of feel good account of a few guys who had come back, had trouble readjusting and then found their way. A nice story, but ... what did it have to do with PTSD? Which obviously doesn't go away just because you get a job or find your "calling." That story also mentioned medication as the predominant "treatment".:mad:. Not that medication can't be helpful or even vitally helpful in getting some people through extremely painful periods - but alone?

Thank you ITL, it does seem to focus on CBT - which IS vital to treating PTSD - and helps me see the major piece that I think is missing - the part about actual EMOTIONS which get hijacked and rerouted (if that's the right way to describe it) in PTSD. It also fails to get the "gestalt" switch that gets "thrown" where the world that someone with PTSD is experiencing is - in terms of observable facts - the same as everyone else but the interpretation of those facts is profoundly "switched". Plus no mention (NYT or NPR) of any kind of dissociation. Or suffering. Is it possible most people are in denial so profound that they just don't notice that suffering exists?

I agree with you sea - that the romanticism about suffering is most unhelpful - I gotta think that some (hopefully small) percentage of people with PTSD actually become WORSE people - perhaps they account for a portion of the abusers on the planet. I am not so sure you are right about the chemo/CBT equation tho - at least if we add in the practice in recognizing and processing emotions with it.

Here is why I think differently: I think there is such a thing as virtue - as I understand it a kind of excellence in living life. And virtuosity in living is characterized by realistic and rationally optimistic thinking PLUS the habit of fully feeling your own emotions and so being able to recognize and respond to the emotions of others. I don't know, but I gotta think doing any kind of exposure therapy and CBT makes people better at both of those things, and thus more virtuous people. Not that it makes life more pleasant - though it likely gives one more tools to use in creating a pleasant life - but it does make possible a certain kind of increased autonomy/self direction.

The problem with this line of thinking for me is that so much in terms of pleasure and autonomy has been LOST with PTSD (at least when it is uncontrolled and/or acute) that it is hard to see any gains as "outweighing" the losses. But maybe at some point it might? Perhaps only in milder cases. Or cases from trauma as an adult - or something like that. Still it is a pretty dicey and "don't try this at home kids" equation.

One thing that really worries me is the apparently TOTAL lack of awareness on the part of the media that people can get PTSD from anything other than combat. Sigh. Long way to go there.

 

[sea]

don't know, but I gotta think doing any kind of exposure therapy and CBT makes people better at both of those things, and thus more virtuous people.

The reason why I made the comparison was mostly to illustrate that the "positives" that people believe come from PTSD are actually treatments for the disorder. If you are mentally unhealthy or mentally ill, getting treatment for that mental illness isn't really so much a gaining in positive, it's just treating the symptoms. If you look at it from the perspective that mental illness is not normal, and is in fact an illness or a disorder, most people are baseline healthy. So by treating PTSD all you are doing is trying to return to that healthy state of mind.

To be honest, I think CBT is something most people could benefit from anyway. But that doesn't have a whole lot to do with PTSD on the whole. My problem with trying to insinuate that treating a mental illness is inherently gaining a more profound state of existence is that normal people come by a healthy state of mind naturally.

The problem with this line of thinking for me is that so much in terms of pleasure and autonomy has been LOST with PTSD (at least when it is uncontrolled and/or acute) that it is hard to see any gains as "outweighing" the losses.

This basically summarizes my point. :)

 

[Eleanor]

If you look at it from the perspective that mental illness is not normal, and is in fact an illness or a disorder, most people are baseline healthy. So by treating PTSD all you are doing is trying to return to that healthy state of mind.

To be honest, I think CBT is something most people could benefit from anyway. But that doesn't have a whole lot to do with PTSD on the whole. My problem with trying to insinuate that treating a mental illness is inherently gaining a more profound state of existence is that normal people come by a healthy state of mind naturally.

Oh sea! If only "normal" was "healthy"!:confused::eek::D For an awful lot of people "more profound" is a pretty easy reach since it would be hard to be "less profound" than where they started!:O_o:

I try not to be biased too much by the "sample" here - and I know there is no "profile" of who gets and who doesn't get PTSD, but I do wonder if there might not be some kind of "better than average moral pitch" that people who get PTSD have in common. Doubtless a week at the VA among a bunch of folks who have PTSD would cure me of this - but I do wonder if it is just "cumulative stress load" that trips the switch, or if there is something else that makes it the only way to handle the trauma. Maybe it is just with people who get PTSD as children... I can't place who posted recently that they had come to see their PTSD (especially the dissociation associated with it) as the embodiment of something "profoundly humane" in them, as it rejected the essential wrongness of the situation.

Or maybe I'm just another compulsive detective for silver linings.... :whistling:

 

[Lionheart]

To my mind there is no upside to trauma. Only upside I can think of is that I can get some relief from it. If I work really hard, there can be some healing take place, and some reduction in the frequency and severity of symptoms. Other than that, I fail to see an upside.

(sorry if I am being cynical) There have been some positive things come out of healing from trauma, just nothing positive about the trauma itself.

 

[Eleanor]

Wishing I had that magic wand, Lion. Really really wishing that.:sick: