Keeping A Distance And Lack Of True Friendships

[mamachick]

Eleanor-I think you are so right on about the three types of friendships and taking on views that are healthy and realistic about their limitations. Part of my own personality has always been honest and loyal to a fault. Therefore I would have a hard time saying someone was a friend of mine and use to prefer the term acquaintance. Once I came to understand what you are speaking of, I was able to refer without distinquishing which kind of friend they are. As you said, they are not fake, they are what they are.

I am not a group person either. However, it would be very difficult to get through life without being part of some group at some point. (even college classes require group projects). Being part of the group does not mean giving in to the "group think". As a matter of fact, it can be a good place to test your own skills and abilities and challenge your own beliefs. There is no requirement to like or identify with all members. They are all individuals as we all are, and I think most participate with the realization of limitations.

Now I have said I am not a group person, yet for finishing my undergrad degree, I was part of a cohort group that met once a week for 15 months. It was a wonderful experience. There was no pretense that we were all friends, but some of us did go out to dinner after class on a couple occassions. That was many years ago, and 4 of us get together a couple times a year or more. We like each other, but not one as virtue.

I then went into a masters program of 30 students that was 3 straight years every weekend. In addition, there were sub groups that met during the week for supervision meetings. These people become like family when you spend this amount of time with them. Individuals in these groups have a common goal. They serve a purpose. One of last meetings and evaluating the cohort experience-we counted the events within the group-ie, 3 marraiges, 4 divorces, 2 births, 4 deaths of close family members, etc. There was a lot of support there. Its not a life long support, but it was support while in the group. There were a few personality conflicts and a few disruptions as a result.

Its concerning to hear someone refer to them as parasitic because I know with that thinking it fuels further isolation and distrust. It is also our thoughts that lead to depression. I have big issues with trust and it has led to depression and isolation. They are individuals, just like members here.

I am not a believer of altruism. While I would love to believe that it does exist, I have been unable to find and example of a person doing something if they do not get something out of it. So yes, at the core of behavior, people use people. Is that bad or disrespectful? I dont think so. I think it is just a reality.

 

[Rosedragon]

What a really interesting thread! I'm new to the forum, and undiagnosed. PTSD is a new notion to me although I have been suffering something for almost my entire life.

I rarely, if ever, make close friends. I had a couple of close friends as a child who made me feel betrayed. I have acquaintances but don't like to let people in. I know it's because I have trust issues. The only people I let in completely are my mum and children, that is those who I love, and who love me, unconditionally. Not even 2 ex-husbands or any boyfriends been let in that closely.

 

[just me here]

I am not a believer of altruism. While I would love to believe that it does exist, I have been unable to find and example of a person doing something if they do not get something out of it. So yes, at the core of behavior, people use people. Is that bad or disrespectful? I dont think so. I think it is just a reality.

Altruism does exist, go sit in on a group of volunteer search and rescue people or a volunteer firefighters meeting. I was a volunteer for many years, I suppose i could have done it for the right to say I did it, maybe for the friends I had hoped to make or for the acceptance in a new community that never materialized, I don't know. I did it because there was a need in the area and the first person that I met asked me too and I did. It sure wasn't for money or glory, and even though I developed a distrust for most of the other volunteers and a disdain for the community in general, I did it because there was a need and not everyone that I was responding too was guilty of being the stereo typical citizen of my particular small (minded) community.

I quit after the staff grew to the point that I wasn't going to be missed, and my only reward is a name on a plaque in a fire hall I have never visited (they built a new one since I quit and commemorated all past firefighter of the year recipients), and personal interactions with a whole mess of people I would have rather never met.

And you know what? I would do it again, the lives I affected needed my help and I was glad to be trained and available and able to help them when they needed it. You will get a similar response from any other volunteer firefighter you ever meet- Altruism exists, but we don't really care if it is acknowledged or not or even if we are sure about our own motivations or not. When the flames are coming out from under the eves and the hoses are getting charged and the order comes to get an air pack on and to be ready for entry, altruism exists. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

 

[freakofnurture]

freakof nature-I hope I didint offen you by makiing things sound easy

No, I didn't feel offended; and even if, you have a right to offend everyone left and right, it's called 'freedom of speech' ;)

Yes, like "you can't love others.." but more specific.

That's interesting.

And it doesn't make that connection or relationship unimportant or worthy of regard. Such casual relationships make social interaction and cooperation in life possible.

Well, it's kind of a tautology along the lines of 'valuable relationships are valuable'.

The larger point here, I think is about motivation, and how it is tough to find a "one size fits all" motivator for a group of people - and the peril of group solidarity motivations in general.

I don't know, if you're in a class together, your common goal is to pass. It's also a common goal to avoid conflict. I don't understand why there is this need for more than that, why people need a feeling of 'belonging together'. Why can't they just travel through life on different parallel roads, why must they always meet on places and crate all this chaos?

I think you jump too fast from "using" to "not respecting". Most casual relationships in our big and rather anonymous society don't offer much opportunity for the kind of personal respect I think you have in mind

That's my problem exactly. I have either a deep exchange with another person, or I have none at all. I can't cope with smalltalk, but in most settings that's all you ever get.

Re Aspergers/autism

I think I'll ask my therapist about it *scratches head* could be useful to have this question answered when I have to do all this paper stuff and seeing the insurance's docs anyways...

Being part of the group does not mean giving in to the "group think".

I have made very different experiences. Maybe it's because I'm so focused on this aspect, so that I see it much clearer while I miss other, more positive things that I'm not looking for?

I'm a lover of science, so I look to studies by social psychologists, and we see, groups start to exist as soon as there is a similarity found between a number of people, and this one similarity already sets into motion an army of cognitive biases aimed at increasing perceived similarity, at establishing an etiquette, at evening out individual differences, at increasing contrast between 'us' and 'them'... It's really as if some sinister machine in people's brains were starting to tick-tock with merciless little cogs, turning to make people 'Group', and 'Group' has only self-preservation in mind. It makes people commit atrocities, small ones and big ones, and always against the enemies of Group. Group goes to war as soon as it starts to exist.

There is no requirement to like or identify with all members.

There can be conflicts with some members, that's okay, you can keep your distance to some members, that can be tolerated. But as soon as you are perceived as a threat for the groups minimum level of cohesion, you are at danger. Like the immune system of an organism attacks a diseased cell to ensure survival, Group will attack you once you don't meet standards anymore.

Its concerning to hear someone refer to them as parasitic because I know with that thinking it fuels further isolation and distrust. It is also our thoughts that lead to depression.

Yes, you are right. And that's why I have been intentionally trying to make 'correcting experiences'.

I was quite happy with the therapy group I am in now; I don't feel as a part of it, but the others didn't show any of the overt behaviours towards me that usually cause me distress in group situations. I think the members did genuinely like each other and thus didn't need any ritualistic methods to make the group 'work'. There was one member of the group badmouthing me for four days before I came in (she knew me from my previous stay at this ward) but it didn't have any effect because the group wasn't dependent on artificial cohesion and didn't feel like it had anything to fear from one 'difficult' member. I got very lucky. In most other groups she would have managed to burn the ground before me and I would have been faced with rejection.

So yes, at the core of behavior, people use people. Is that bad or disrespectful? I dont think so. I think it is just a reality.

I agree.

(T)he lives I affected needed my help and I was glad to be trained and available and able to help them when they needed it.

See, you say it yourself. And if you wouldn't have gotten some sort of satisfaction out of it you wouldn't have done it.

That's just how people work. It's normal. It's necessary to survive. If we weren't like that we'd be running around, doing random stuff regardless of the energy spent and the consequences for ourselves. The unintended side effects of the ability to be purely altruistic would kill our species :)

 

[just me here]

No, I didn't feel offended; and even if, you have a right to offend everyone left and right, it's called 'freedom of speech' ;)

:)

I am also not offended, but I would submit that you may have ventured off your turf a bit.

As I said, you should go to a meeting of volunteer firefighters or search and rescue people and see the altruism exhibited by these individuals before saying it doesn't exist.

As I said I do not know why I continued for so long, or why I started. You may be right, I might have done it for satisfaction or personal pride, but that feeling is quickly overwhelmed by the things volunteers are asked to do and the things they see while doing them. I may have started out waiting anxiously for the next call but that ended fairly quickly. I soon dreaded the next call, I soon realised I was just fifteen minutes away from scenes of death and dismemberment that the uninitiated cannot imagine.

You may also be correct in saying that altruism would have negative effects (if it existed). The negative effects I suffer are a near total inability to drive without overwhelming fear (not an anxiuos feeling, real sweaty forehead fear) that some unthinking person is going to kill me and all of my passengers just like the people I have seen die at the hands of other unthinking people, over and over.

Once again, I have wandered off point. The OP questioned wether true friendships can exist and my answer is still no, not for us. True friendship requires a level of trust and trustworthyness that a PTSD sufferer is not capable of.

 

[mamachick]

freakofnurture-I am glad you did have that one positive group experience. It would be more difficult for me to join any kind of group today because of trust issues. I am also working on that because I know that likely I can get back to the place where I was more involved in many aspects of life, which often require some sort of group participation. I want that again. You experienced it in this group and say you got lucky, the fact is, that there are some good people. We can only predict future based on past experiences and so if we have had bad ones, it will affect how we feel.

 

[mamachick]

just me here-I think the question of altruism can be argued all day long. I agree that you have volunteered your time and have done a very good thing for your community, but I continue to believe that you did get something out of it. Did it make you feel good to help? That is something. If you did not get something out of it, you would not be using it as an example.

I have made annonymous donations of cash for a specific need. Nobody knows who did it, but I do. If it makes me feel good, then it is not altruistic. My work has been in a profession that is extremely underpaid and has proven to be dangerous. I chose it because I care about people. I do care about people very much, and will go to bat and have put myself in situations that can be dangerous and the people have needed me or someone else to do this job, yet I would not call myself altruistic.

When I was married, my husband often brought me coffee in bed and sometimes gave me a back rub when my back hurt, among other things. He was smart enough to know that by doing these kind acts, it was more likely that he would get dinner and sex. If you ever counseled couples where one of them stopped having an interest in sex, (it was not because they were intentionally withholding), but often they were feeling something missing.

Often in marraige/family, one person starts getting tired of doing for everyone and nobody seems to be thinking or considering their feelings. If there was true altruism, one would be happy to serve without any reward, and after awhile, doing things just because its the right thing to do-isnt enough. We are human, and if we are not at least getting our self esteem elevated in some way, we often loose interest.

Volunteering is one of the best ways to come to feel better about ourselves. We are doing it for others and without pay. It makes us feel good-therefore we do get something out of it. Just my opinion.

 

[freakofnurture]

I am also working on that because I know that likely I can get back to the place where I was more involved in many aspects of life, which often require some sort of group participation. I want that again.

This is where we are different, I guess.

Since I have defused the pressure that I 'Must Get Along With People' I find that I want to have even less to do with them than before. Typical for me would have been to now feel at least slightly attracted to the thing that I mostly just disliked because people tried to push me into that direction (I know, and I swear I can't help it). But I withdraw even more, now relieved that I am finally allowed to do it.

I really wonder where this will lead. Maybe it's only an initial reaction and I'll start to gravitate more towards people eventually. Somehow it's scary that I want people off of me so badly. I mean, this planet is full of them!

after awhile, doing things just because its the right thing to do-isnt enough.

Great example. I'd add:

Acts of self-denying kindness and sacrifice can (not must) also be an expression of self-destructive tendencies, self-hatred and low self-esteem. To confront yourself with horrible suffering, risk your life on a regular basis, it can be a way to hurt yourself in most extreme ways, yet society not only doesn't frown upon this behaviour, but actually rewards it.

Is it time for a separate thread about this?

 

[mamachick]

freak-I agree. I will start a new thread about altruism as this is the wrong thread for it, but I do think there are a lot of interesting ideas about it.

 

[mamachick]

I put it in discussions fon-please reply. You have so much good to say

 

[wallflower]

Thanks everyone for making this such an interesting discussion!

 

[Kimpersonal]

I guess I'm quite the weirdo in regards to finding aquaintances (won't go so far as to call them "friends"). I am quite candid sometimes about why I am crying/shaking or whatever it is I'm doing that is a symptom of PTSD. Checking out the reaction of someone when I explain that I am having a flashback about my Mom trying to drown me or force me to eat rotting food until I puke will always elicit an immediate response ... but it will also have a lasting effect for better or worse. Most people avoid me once they have heard me state the reason(s) I am not my "usual funny/likeable" front that I show them. I am glad they avoid me! :sneaky:

Shallow chit-chat about the weather upsets me to no end! If this is friendship ... they can keep it!

Like others here, I trust my children and my dog and 2 guinea pigs. I trust my bf to a degree ... my brother to a degree ... and one other friend to a degree.

I hope Brat reads this in regards to "altruism". I turned my Brother in to authorities years ago for possession of child pornography, knowing full well it would have negative consequences for myself, my bro, my parents. My only thought was of the child victims caught in the hands of child porn rings. Did any of it make me feel like a hero? No. I knew the authorities probably wouldn't take this evidence and do much with it.

Whistle blowing puts us in harm's way ... it causes a massive reduction in "friends" ... it blows apart families ... and rarely helps except to shine a light on what is dark and disgusting in the hopes that others might educate themselves and DO SOMETHING!!!

I martyred myself for my own values and beliefs ... which are shared by others. Pats on the head for doing what is right? Feels somewhat condescending and I don't like it. What possible gain might I have had in mind for myself by turning in my brother? The hardships certainly outweighed any benefits.

I suppose, in some strange way, I did it to show myself that I could act in an altruistic way if presented with the grisly opportunity to do so. Those who died digging people out after 911? Altruism in action or suicidal tendencies? I don't think many did it for a medal of bravery. Superficial rewards cannot constitute as "icing" ... especially if the cake of altruism is only an illusion.