Suicide Is Not An Option But An Unwelcome Invitation To Hell For The Survivors

[ms spock]

For me feeling suicidal is a safety thing - if I am totally hyperalert and completely on guard I am safe from the sexual predators of my family. I have been hard wired to be like this and I am working on it bit by bit. It will take a lot of time.

Totally crazy hey? That is a hell of a lot of distorted thinking.

So my suicidal ideation kept me alive. Now I have to develop other ways of being in the world. Tough work for me - it really is hard.

 

[ms spock]

My father also suffered from clinical depression and when he became suicidal he sought treatment. His opinion was the same as mine. He died, from cancer not from giving over to his ideation about suicide.

And that is a wonderful decision to have come to @The Albatross. You model best practice so much and I appreciate your contributions so much.

And in a non suicidal ideation period of people can grab on to this and also coping strategies.

A list of things to do from self soothing to ringing crisis lines to medication to meditation and mindfulness and people to be around - even in a library can be helpful.

 

[ms spock]

Some aren't as strong as others. Doesn't mean they're weak or selfish for giving up. Just means they couldn't handle it as well as others.Some people cannot deal wih it no matter what they do to fix it.

I was in this state for a fair bit of last year unfortunately.

You compassion and kindness is very generous in your big hearted understanding of how difficult these states can be.

I am sure your kindness touches those around you.

 

[ms spock]

Selfishly, perhaps, I wish that when we talked about suicide we could refrain from belittling or berating people for choosing a life (or death) that makes sense to them. Everyone gets to live their own life. Really. They get to make decisions for themselves that we may not agree with, even if we love them, even if it hurts us (you know, provided they're not actively abusing us, etc). But I wish that instead of talk of suicide so regularly descending into accusations of selfishness flung back and forth (accomplishing what exactly?) that we would talk about how to reduce suicide - how do we make it easier for people to live in the world? How do we increase coping mechanisms and resources? How do we give people the very best chances to live a life for them?

Now this would be a wonderful thread to have going. How we manage not to kill ourselves on a daily basis.

What wonderful insight!

How do we develop the skills to make life a better place to be for ourselves and others?

How do we recreate the community village square so that people can be with a sense of belonging and how do we bring up talking to people instead of going to their funerals. That is a good question to ask.

How do we tend to the soul/essence of those we come in contact with?

My way is to use humour, fun and a sense of playfulness. I can be downright silly. But I use it to include people without them having to be in extreme pain before they connect with other human beings. I try really hard to focus on and praise people's successes and insight. Imagine if everyone on the forum really pinpointed two people's insight or successes each day and really praised them in a detailed manner - would it help a shift in focus. What if we say I notice you were doing well with X and now Z is doing your head in but remember X - you did X well.

I did The Happiness Challenge with members of this forum and it has made a significant difference to my life.

Anyway I love your post @ill. It would be a great tragedy if someone with your insight on what is needed to prevent suicide committed suicide - but I appreciate your brutal honesty, I really do. You have the makings of a great thread - if we could ban any of the talk of selfishness and side step all that and get down to those three things that you mentioned would

1.talk about how to reduce suicide - how do we make it easier for people to live in the world?

2. How do we increase coping mechanisms and resources?

3.How do we give people the very best chances to live a life for them?

If would could set the thread up within strict parameters it could be quite productive and a great resource for current and future forumites.

 

[ms spock]

This past week and a half has been utter Hell for me in the sense that stress also acts as a trigger for anxiety, which triggers the depression. So the feelings of wanting to just curl up and die have increased thousandfold. Have I thought about killing myself?

I really feel for you. Lived where you are now most of last year. And a fair bit of this year as well. The strategies that you are using, even though it is bone wrenching hard would be good to have a in a thread, without any of the selfish discussions, be very useful to many people on this forum.

 

[Hashi]

I see "suicide is selfish" as the same thinking that meant that until quite recently people were put in prison for failed suicide attempts. I know no-one here has said it's a crime, I don't mean that. I mean it's the same idea that the person is doing wrong. The same idea that others are in a position to hold them accountable for it. The same idea that it's a wilful choice. The same judgement and condemnation. The same feeling of entitlement to keep suicidal people in some sort of prison (an emotional/existential one, if not a literal one).

Some people will "aim" their suicide at hurting another person. I don't think those are the majority of suicides, and I don't think that's the type of suicide that's being discussed by those who disagree that suicide is selfish. To feel that suicide in general is selfish to other people - I think that's to take something personally when it really wasn't about you.

Other people being hurt isn't always the same as someone being selfish for doing it.

 

[Tinyflame]

Someone said in another thread, that it's hard for us to learn that we are not responsible or at fault for other's feelings, reactions and responses, after perhaps a lifetime of being told so, implicitly and explicitly. Other than children, or the impact on them, people (adults) should mind their own business.

 

[ms spock]

And if you by pass the selfish blah, blah conversation and go for open hearted connection, I feel that is more productive. Discussing with the person how can you keep yourself right now? Linking up to a mental health professional, working on the idea of growing a support network, getting someone close to the person to write what the loss of them would mean, getting people to do pleasurable or busy activities, watching the whole 7 seasons of Star Trek, disco dancing in cyberspace in our chat room, or holding a dinner party in our chat room, chainsawing down feral/dead trees and creating a native habitat by planting trees specifically native in the place you are tending, and doing The Happiness Challenge - I saw amazing growth in some of the people I did that with by private message on this forum, significant change in others, I watch one person bravely fight their reactive attachment disorder stuff - (well so much went down for so many people I couldn't do it justice in this post,) supporting people to stay in paid employment and keep their routines going, getting people to ring crisis lines rather than wear out their supporters and friends and family, drawing, painting, walking, doing Tai Chi, feeling their feet on the ground, reassuring themselves in the mirror with some pre writing CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) sayings and of course, one of my favourites - disco dancing. It would be fun to make a How Not to Kill Yourself Just for this Now - Managing Suicidal Ideation - and have like the disco music with humorous interpretations and step by step instructions.

I am not saying all this is easy or will build up easily. As many you know I am in a respite period from my SI (Suicidal Ideation.) I almost didn't make it through last October. I needed to be reminded of the above. So people to do people checks - how did your three minutes of disco, mindfulness, booty shaking, toe stretching, wriggling your eye brows - a constant reminder that someone matters by a simple question everyday, can be powerful. I watch so many people bravely struggle.

 

[ms spock]

I think developing compassion for yourself is key in terms of healing, preventing and managing suicidal ideation. I am so on my Ls with this stuff.

And as we develop compassion for ourselves, we need to take a breath, and have 10 seconds of compassion for the unhelpful people, for those that essentially have not experienced suicidal ideation. Imagine if you didn't know anything about PTSD, imagine if you had no understanding of Complex Trauma, imagine if you didn't have any experience that suicidal ideation is often a way people manage incredibly destructive situations, internal or external, or the suffering and pain from PTSD - a way out from the incredible emotional bone wrenching, heart zapping and soul sucking pain.

If someone tells me they are suicidal I feel concerned, but I trust that they are working through that. I do a little bit to assist, if I am able at the time.

I will add to and correct the mistakes on this post later on tonight. I have to think more about it.

If I hadn't has a life time of suicidal ideation - then I imagine that when someone spoke of suicidal ideation, it would be absolutely terrifying. The person might panic. The person might feel absolutely catastrophic anxiety, the person might think that someone they like/love/cherish might be dead shortly and they might never see them again. So saying suicide is selfish might be the only thing that springs to mind - not because they want to guilt trip or shame the person but simply because they are totally paniking and they don't know what to do. I think we all know how overwhelming that is, and I, for one have not managed a wide range of situations very well when I am fearful, scared, overwhelmed dissociated, anxious, panicked and frightened.

Another thing that people don't seem to pick up on is that a lot of people won't say that they are suicidal or have suicidal ideation - they can be some of the loudest voices in the "suicide is selfish camp." If you are talking with one of these people you are perhaps one of the voices of reason. They are saying that suicide is selfish to distract themselves from their suicidal ideation because life is so hard in that moment, and they feel so ashamed so they seek out people who say that is not a good and helpful or constructive path of commentary to follow. If you approach these situations from a well if a person is suicidal I would suggest X, Y and Z. In real life I give them numbers like Life LIne and the SuicideCallBack Line. I write them down so if they "happen" to meet someone who is suicidal they can pass them on. I go through my never ending list of distraction techniques - (disco of course features prominently), how to get someone to ask for help, how to just stay alive just for this day, hour, minute or ten seconds, depending on where they are at. I use a lot of humour as well, if appropriate or once the build up of tension or a cry has given a release. Even just saying to someone you have had different feelings at other times of your life, just hang in there for this now.
I have got feedback, some years later, about how helpful that this was, at the time.

So the "suicide is selfish" is a cliche in our culture, which does not provide us with a way to productively deal with severe emotional distress. My hope is that all our conversations will give rise to some other more productive ways of handling extreme states of being - maybe the next generation will benefit from our struggles. I certainly hope so.

I am just learning kindness and compassion to myself - sometimes going on the "suicide is selfish" is a way of someone beating up on themselves for the shame of feeling suicidal.

But there some people are just self righteous gits and they just piss me off because they ruin any debate that could constructively break apart suicidal ideation in to a more manageable chunks of anxiety and panic and loss of connection with your self and other people.

Sometimes someone just chatting about nothing in particular helps me get out of my suicidal ideation. Some really simple things can help me and other people and whilst we are doing the "suicide is selfish" shuffle we miss out on opportunities to have a real dialogue about not only managing suicidal feelings and suicidal ideation on an individual but also across our communities, culture and for those that have them families.

With a large compassion heart we can make social change and we can hold on to each other, we can crack jokes and we can say our best - hopefully if we get it wrong people will see the kindness under the intention.

 

[Tinyflame]

Oh I'm sure @Ms Spock that sometimes people have wonderful intentions. Or get it wrong, or it's repulsive and terrifying. Generally speaking I don't find those types come out at it with both barrels. All I meant was, just as it's no one's right to say someone's life isn't worth living, especially if they cannot help or defend themselves, how is it that others can determine what 'is' worth living? They say so, but they carry on- with their own life, I would hope they would extend that right to even those they feel that way about. They do not live it. It's like living with an oak tree across one's back and someone saying that a person is selfish to want it off. But they cannot (or care not) to remove it themself (which is impossible).

I think 'helping' and your compassion is huge, and probably for so many, :hug: , I don't mean to sound cold, naturally you are 'correct' in a healthy, sane, respecting-of-other's way. I think there may also be a difference however too between those asking for help and those not. I have never expected anyone to do for me what is my onus and responsibilty. I just want to be left in peace. But then again, who judges what is not my business anyway, even if I am the one being judged.

 

[Tinyflame]

I think the problem is there's much behind the scenes in terms of beliefs and judgments as per suicide.

For example, I saw (with horror) people during the 911 twin towers collapse jump from 80+ floors, I think 2 held hands. Everyone can grasp 'why'- either inevitably they knew they were trapped and going to die one way, or they believed so. As much as we can all relate to the fear of what's coming, no one condemns that. Oddly enough, to the extent I can say, I wouldn't jump, that would be my decision. So it's not just a question of fear, or the avoidance of suffering or an 'easy' way out. It's not easy, to struggle with it or to choose it. One might say succumb to it. I mean really, even if someone doesn't understand, can they not 'guesstimate' how bad it has to be for it to feel like the only option left? In fact, I literally read an article once where struggling with SI can actually lead to ptsd. I get that, because it is such a struggle with near death. But it's anything but 'easy', or selfish, it's frightening and horrifying. No one 'chooses' to get to that point.

When they speak of Euthenasia for the terminally ill or chronically ill, approximately two thirds+ are in favor. But everyday I care for many people in that position, and have cared for many family members, and I can say it's my experience the greatest suffering is emotional, more than physical. And when that's reduced, and with better pain managment, the rest is a lot more bearable, even enjoyable (yes, people are actually happy. Heck, in my family if people committed suicide because of the fear their 'illnesses' and the unknown produced half of my family wouldn't have been born). And yet, a proponent in my country for Euthenasia, he expressed what he feared about his deteriorating health (he was incorrect as what he 'feared' such as being 'carried around' actually couldn't happen). But needless to say, he died and the article read "Unfortunately he died a peaceful death in the arms of his loving wife.." (WTF? I get it- they meant without seeing Euthenasia legalized here yet, of course. ) But really, what 'are' they striving for, if 'that' is considered 'unfortunate'?

Similarly, today in my country they said 4 people have been denied access to the neighbouring country because they had health records that indicated a past suicide attempt, and that medical info was shared with the 'authorities' (police, border security). Now, I know I don't know the whole story, they say it is within their discretion to do so and perhaps there was a threat to thers(?), but they did say the people were horrified and mortifed, so I doubt they were a 'threat to national security' because of it. But that was the verdict. Who knows.

All my life, I've cared for other people. I dare say in most regards I am not selfish, or certainly try very hard not to be. I give and give and give, what I do have though it's not much, although sometimes least of all to those who deserve it most. But if others condemn people for feeling lousy, I can't imagine they'd find the patience or energy or strength to give as is necessary for long in the capacities of the work I do. Is it a moral defect, or crime, or selfish (for myself) to not be as strong as the person leveling judgment? To get, or to wish to get, the oak tree off my back and the backs of others? If so I guess I'm guilty.

 

[Fadeaway]

I am a survivor of suicide. My own mother committed suicide. I have also dealt with feeling suicidal myself. So I think I am bit qualified to comment on this. Someone who has never dealt with feelings of suicide or has never been affected by suicide has absolutely no right to judge people who are dealing with thoughts of suicide.

I thought a lot of things when my mother committed suicide but I never once thought she was selfish. There are a whole heck of a lot of things I think she did that was selfish but that wasn't. If anything, I truly believe she thought she was being unselfish as to not be a burden on anyone anymore.

Making anyone feel guilty for feeling suicidal is pretty sick IMO. People who are feeling suicidal wouldn't even be thinking about it if they weren't already in enough pain and are probably already carrying around enough guilt. To add to that is cruel.