What Do You Talk About?

[Pencil]

@Skylynx - I could have written all of your post, except for having Roy as an ex-boyfriend :D

 

[NovemberStar]

@Skylynx does what Pencil say apply to you?

@Pencil in that case, presumably the therapist would be leading/guiding on how to talk about transference? Or it would be better to find one who will?

@Hashi - A good T won't rush to bring up transference - mine did not. Had she, I would have run out of there so fast the door probably would have come off the hinges. Why? Because like @Pencil said, emotional intimacy is at the very root of all my trauma. It has always incredibly 'unsafe' to acknowledge it, let alone discuss it in the past. It is that way for a lot of people. What has helped me is my T letting me guide her as to what and who and when we might talk bout anything. She does not push me too hard, and it is her gentle approach that has enabled me to take risks with her that I never have been able to take in therapy before. In people who have not had prolonged childhood abuse at the hands of a parent / caregiver, transference is probably a lot less 'threatening' and yes, T's will bring it up. I have had T's in the past try to do so with me. They'd say 'now, what about what is happening in the room, with you and me, in the here and now?'. All very well-meaning, but it would cause me to shut down, dissociate and have internal panic attacks. It prompted me to put up stronger concrete walls to protect myself - pretty much 'killing' the therapeutic relationship.

@Lucycat - transference affects everyone to a lesser or more significant degree. Is there a reason you haven't ever talked about it with a T you've seen? Yes, you might know why it is (most of us do), but what stopped you discussing it with your T? It might be it truly was such a small issue you never thought to raise it. I guess by not talking about it at all with your T, maybe you missed out on learning something you might not be able to learn on your own? (I don't mean this in a judgmental way - just curious that's all :hug:).

For those of us who experienced child abuse by a caregiver / parent, the T relationship provides us a vital relationship in which we can heal from past hurts. We can use the feelings we have for our T (i.e. parent) to work through unresolved issues and trauma - the key difference being that this time, it is within one of the safest environments you can possible explore emotional intimacy - with someone highly trained, and with very good boundaries in place. No other relationship in the world is like this - with our T's, they give us their undivided attention (for that hour). They give, give, give; we do not have to give anything back in return - we do not have to consider how they 'feel' or don't feel (even though of course we do). They will accept us without judgement, and be a steady rock in times of crisis, but without becoming too emotionally involved as to lose perspective and no longer be able to help us.

@Skylynx - Oh how much I relate to your fear - by bringing it up, having it confirmed, our Ts CANNOT and WILL not, care for us in the way a mother might. In my email to my T, I said exactly this - it is one of the most painful reminders of the relationship with my mother: at the end of the connection is another person fully CAPABLE of being a kind, nurturing person (my T) but she is making the decision to NOT allow it. My mother was capable of loving and caring for me (she did so when she had something to gain from it), but chose to withhold that care and love from me. My T is a very kind, caring, and I strongly suspect, very capable of loving and caring for me, YET she will not. She too, is 'withholding' her care and 'love'.

That is very very painful.

However - I once read something that helped me see why my T (or your T) does this. The boundaries they put in place help PROTECT us from further emotional harm. Because there is such a strong boundary, it means we are able to allow ourselves to be more vulnerable with our T's, and therefore more able to bring up the issues we most need to work on.

With my mother (I don't know if it was the same for you) we had no boundary. She invaded me emotionally - I was so enmeshed with her, I felt her feelings for her. I felt her pain. I felt her distress. I akin our relationship to that of 'emotional rape'. If my T was to let down the safe boundaries, I would be incredibly fearful (read, terrified) of her 'emotionally raping' me too, I'd be beside myself with fear and not able to do the work with her I need to. Despite my T having very good boundaries, there is still a part of me that is very afraid of her invading me emotionally. W have talked about this quite a bit.

Skylnx - I hope you can talk to her about it, hard as it is. Yes, it might be painful to have to acknowledge there is a boundary between your T and you that cannot be crossed, but I hope that by talking to her about it you will come to see how it's there to PROTECT you, not HURT you. And allowing that connection with your T to develop will have some amazing benefits - while she won't be able to take you home and let you curl up on her couch with a blanket, she will be something our mother's were not - safe, consistent, strong, and protective - striving to not hurt us or to recreate the trauma bonds.

 

[Skylynx]

Thanks for your comments. I feel you relate to what I'm going through. I kind of know why I can't admit feeling transference love for T. It's because my aunts who raised me shouted at me every day, sometimes many times a day, that they weren't my mother so leave them alone. So, I always played outdoors so I wouldn't hear that. It always hurt. Now it's a forbidden subject. I know it's in the past, but feels so alive with my inner kid. Pencil, I'm glad you understand, too.

 

[NovemberStar]

@Skylynx - as hard as it is, it's great you can already see some for he reasons why you are fearful of talking to your T about this - clearly you are afraid you will experience the same rejection form your T as you did from your aunts. Not all Ts are created equal of course, but has your T ever given an indication she might 'drop you' or 'not see you' anymore? Do you think she is good at her job?

Often we can find multiple 'examples' and 'evidence' of the ways in which our Ts might reject or abandon us - but most of those will be in our heads, and not based on reality. Maybe you would find it helpful to actively look or all the ways in which your T is trustworthy; look for the evidence you have that she is a skilled, kind, and capable T. Look for the ways she makes you feel safe and has made you feel safe, so far. that might help reassure your inner child that she is indeed a see person with whom you can talk to about this.

I wrote a poem last October, after a session with my T, describing how a little heart that started off so full of love, became broken and lost; but how isolating that place was, to not love or look for kindness and repair. Of how the little heart searched and found, 'bubbles to fill it with hope' (my T). Following that session with my T, I remember very vividly, my inner child coming out of the cupboard she had hid in for nearly 30 years - she was so happy to have found a sense of safety, that she left her hiding spot and literally came out to dance.

 

[Pencil]

She invaded me emotionally - I was so enmeshed with her, I felt her feelings for her. I felt her pain. I felt her distress. I akin our relationship to that of 'emotional rape'.

I had the opposite experience: my mother was cold, distant, unapproachable, unreachable, and abandoned me. For this reason the same boundaries that ensure your T will not invade you, and make you feel safe, make me feel that the therapeutic relationship is in itself a re-enactment of the relationship with my mother. The rigid structure of therapy sessions is all too reminiscent of the discipline and structure of my childhood home. The very idea of therapy makes me feel incredibly threatened. The last therapist at one stage pointed out that the 'barrier' between me and her was the same as that between me and my mother and that it had to be 'very, very hard' for me. I couldn't see the point of putting myself through that torture.

 

[NovemberStar]

EDITED to add - so sorry @Skylynx for thread jack - thought I was replying to my own thread - so sorry. Didn't realize til now - the previous post also probably belonged on my thread too - sorry! I'll pay better attention next time! :hug:


@Pencil - I'm sorry your mother was so cold and heartless, and never showed you love or care. Sometimes I like to convince myself 'if only' my mother had been consistent in her awful treatment of me (and newer shoed love or care) it would have been easier to predict and understand, but your experience reminds me that is not necessarily so.

Have you read 'Motherless Daughters' by Hope Edelman? she wrote a series of books, my favorite wars the follow up book 'Letters From Motherless Daughters'. It is letters motherless daughters wrote and covers all form of loss - including abandonment - as well of course as death, expected or sudden. The letters are from daughters who lost their mothers at various ages - from infants through to women in their 50s; and the book is split up into decades of loss. First few chapters look at recent loss, the latter chapters look at loss of your mother and your life experience of living without her in your life, for 60 plus years. I just thought of that when you posted she had abandoned you.

I can see why the boundaries in T would be difficult, but have you never had a T that is kind, and shows they care in ways other than hugging or holding hands? (it creeps me out, thinking of my T touching me in any way, I know some Ts do, but I could NOT cope with it AT ALL, so verity glad she keeps her distance!). I guess it would be difficult for you to recognize kinds and warmth, if you haven't ever experienced it. But it wouldn't be impossible for it to happen. I really believe it will be about finding the right T for you, at the right time.

As for the 'point' of the torture of having a caring T relationship with boundaries, it is exactly that what will help you heal. I definitely understand it needs to be when you're a little bit ready (It's taken me 20 years of therapy to get there); but facing your worst fears (rejection, abandonment, and even 'feeling close' and 'forming a connection') might be very hard to go through BUT out the other side your life will change so much. Lol, I am speaking with hope, rather than experience, but already I can see that working with my T, good things are happening,…. along with the hard stuff. Actually allowing myself to feel and acknowledge a 'connection' with my T is pretty awesome. So far (since our last session on Friday) I've been in a very good headspace. Sure, it might change, and the pain and rawness of it might come back, but for now I am basking in the positive aspects of the transference.

So far, it has definitely been WORTH the struggle and fear. (Ask me again in a week or too or a month and I might feel differently, but then ask me again 6 months down the track and maybe I will be closer to out the other side, and be so very very glad I did it!).

This coming Friday I hope to share with her my 'silly' fears I have at times - it's not really deep stuff, not as 'hard' as the last couple of sessions where I've gone in dreading talking about stuff. I want to let her now and talk to her about why I often email mid week. Yes, its often about updating her, and giving her info I'd like to talk to her about in more detail when I see her next, but it is also about reassurance. Why? It's like she disappears - or fades away, and that is scary. I see her on a Friday. For the next couple of days, whether or not I'm struggling or feeling good, it feels like she is 'nearby'. Then by Monday, Tuesday, I feel she is so far far away, it scares me - and that is when I email her. By wednesday, Thursday, I can feel she is 'nearby' again.

I'd like to be brave and admit that over the past few months I did something to feel safe and reassure myself she was still 'there'. At our first session, she gave me a piece of paper with our next app on it, and her name, handwritten. I put it away and forgot about tit, but found it weeks later. And for the next few months, I purposefully carried that piece of paper with me in my bag. Sometimes I slept with it under my pillow, to feel safe (hmmm ok, not so sure I will share THAT bit … :eek:… yet …or never lol!). But a few weeks ago, it got badly wet and torn and I had to throw it out. One day, hopefully soon, I'd love to ask her to write her name on another piece of paper so I can keep it and 'feel safe' in-between appointments. I really do not know how long it will take me to be able to ask her for that - first step will be telling her about it.

When I was having really bad dissociation and derealisation, I'd find myself thinking and worrying (a lot) 'Is she even REAL? Does she actually EXIST, as a real person, outside of the therapy rooms? Like maybe I only imagined her; the kindness and safety I feel begin with her isn't real, because she isn't real'. It was such a frightening thought. And my piece of paper with her name and writing on it helped me so much in those times. I think I ought to talk to her about it now, while it isn't happening, so maybe then one day, if I really need it, I could ask her to write her name down again.

Does that seem mega WEIRD???

Honestly, if she offered to do that for me (after telling her about it), I would feel so damn grateful I know I would cry. I would be in absolute AWE that she would do that for me - and it's only a freaking piece of damn paper! :confused:

 

[Pencil]

but have you never had a T that is kind, and shows they care in ways other than hugging or holding hands?

Are there Ts that hold hands and hug?? Good gracious!

 

[NovemberStar]

Apparently. Different Ts have different policies in this. I've NEVER asked any T about this. I have been known to move my chair AWAY when I sit down because even 4 feet is too close for me. I had a T once who moved her chair to sit beside me and it freaked me out so much I didn't hold back at all telling her to PLEASE move away NOW.

Mind boggling, isn't it.

 

[Pencil]

Does that seem mega WEIRD???

Not at all. The therapist gave me a letter to read over a break and I kept it with me 24/7 :shy::x3:

 

[ellienad]

Does that seem mega WEIRD???

Oh, I'm so happy to see I'm not the only one who has done something like this!! My T gave me her card after our first session months ago, and I still haven't taken it out of my wallet. At first I left it in there by accident, then I realized I liked having it there to feel "closer" to her? I don't know. It's like a little reminder I'm not alone...

I had a T once who moved her chair to sit beside me and it freaked me out so much I didn't hold back at all telling her to PLEASE move away NOW.

This would freak me out too! I like the 4 feet of space between us and prefer to keep it that way ;) However, one time my T accompanied me somewhere (long story...) and she ended up sitting next to me at one point. It was the ODDEST thing. I didn't know what to do with myself and it still gives me the willies thinking back to it!

In general on the transference topic, I personally have not brought it up, but I'm thinking I will have to eventually. I find that mine is more of an attachment issue (Is this still considered transference?) I've always craved that "motherly figure", as my mom was not there the way I needed her to be growing up. I knew within the first few weeks of working with my T I knew that I was "attached" and was putting her in that motherly figure position. Multiple times when I've mentioned my age, my T has joked about how she's old enough to be my mom. We've both laughed and said how that is a "weird" concept, but haven't gone further into discussion. Meanwhile, I'm internally freaking out because it's validating that motherly figure position I've put her in! Argh... :(

Sorry to go off on that tangent...

 

[NovemberStar]

@ellienad - transference is simply ANY feelings you have towards a therapist that are not to do with your T, but more related to previous relationships. Transference exists in all relationships to varying extents, because all previous experience related to our perceptions of current relationships. In other words, as human beings it is not possible to separate previous experiences from how we think, feel, behave in the present / future.

What you describe as 'attachment' is exactly transference - you know you yearn for a motherly figure, and feel those feelings - whether or not you feel that way towards your T, or a female friend, or any female figure, it is still transference.

Lol re the age thing - I'm pretty sure my T is my age. I don't 'want her to be my mum'; my feelings are more deep sadness that while she is a very kind, caring, capable person, she can never and will never, full the void I have in wanting to feel cared for and loved unconditionally. I don't fantasize about going home with her and curling up on her couch (even though I often use that example); I can't even tell you what it is I would 'like' if it was possible for her to fulfill the role in my life… maybe just to know she felt as deeply for me, as I do for her? To know that she would be as 'devastated' if I was stuck my lightening and wiped off the face of the earth, as I would be if it happened to her? TO know she misses me in-between appointments too?

I know its pure 'fantasy' because if it was actually possible, it would scare the absolute shit out of me if those boundaries were crossed. IE, if she 'needed' me in any way, that would be a MASSIVE trigger, since my mum 'needed' me and 'used me' for her emotional support to my detriment. Hmmm - so probably not even a fantasy so much, as I just feel really really sad, that I will never be anywhere as important to my T as she is to me.

 

[ellienad]

What you describe as 'attachment' is exactly transference - you know you yearn for a motherly figure, and feel those feelings - whether or not you feel that way towards your T, or a female friend, or any female figure, it is still transference.

@NovemberStar Oh my, well, I'm experiencing quite a bit of transference then! Lol. Thank you for explaining. I completely understand the longing for her to feel as deeply for you, as you do for her. I would think even though it is a "therapeutic relationship", your T would be deeply saddened if something were to happen to you, as that's human nature when we become close to anyone, "professional relationship" or not. At least this is what I've told myself ;)

As embarrassing as it is to admit, I unfortunately have fantasized about going home with my T, etc. What it would be like if she were my mom...ugh. I've done it my entire life though. When I was little, I would fantasize about female figures in my life adopting me :(