General Do Lists Help Or Hurt?

[Laura 2]

Why does your sufferer behave in this manor? She feels unsafe. Following the map meticulously is how she attempts to feel safe. Safety is a concept that is not understood by many people, and unless you've been in the position of constantly feeling unsafe, you don't know what this feels like as you simply can't.
Safety is a basic human need that is taken for granted by many/most. There is something called the pyramid of human needs. At the bottom is food/shelter/water. Right above this is the need for safety.

+

@Solara - I think you're absolutely spot on, unless you've experienced the terrifying sense of having your life being under threat you really cannot empathise with this constant feeling of existential unsafety. I wouldn't have Before Trauma. I was Mrs-take-it-all-in-her-stride!

Maslow's triangle is very useful indeed, especially for explaining to clueless professionals. I had been at the top for years, self-actualised, running my own business...and then along came the stalker....as time went by I was scrabbling to even get on the food and water rung. Literally was without food for weeks at one point. As I write I am living day to day, not knowing where I shall be living next month. My way of making lists is to document everything as meticulously as possible.

 

[Lucycat]

I always considered myself a 'list' person. I like writing things down so I don't forget. I like to break down tasks into manageable tasks and tick them off to help me through. But...

A couple of years ago we went on holiday with another couple. Laura said we need to have meetings before the holiday to agree everything - itinerary etc. We did this and I was happy enough with it. However the holiday was a nightmare as I had not appreciated that this itinerary would be taken so literally. At one point we were in a hotel, and Laura said it was so lovely there she would like to stay a bit longer. I said, well why don't we? We don't have to check out yet - lets stay. Her reply was that it was not possible because it was not on the itinerary. Our plans were just for the 4 of us. It affected no-one else but she would not budge. I was astounded.

My point is this, there is so much attention paid to the navigation and the list, that she misses the sights and beauty of what is outside the car window.

This is just so true of Laura's experience. I feel sad for her and what she is missing.

 

[Laura 2]

@Lucycat - I had a holiday rather like that with a good friend before trauma. Her intractability nearly caused an international incident and got her bounced at the border of one country whilst we stood by, gobsmacked. Then she blamed us for her scene and held it over us for days after. She's no longer a good friend, unsurprisingly - but the key point for this thread I think is that you don't have to have PTSI or any mental illness in order to be obsessed with lists and rules and needing to be in control.

 

[nursenurse]

Lol, I was married to a list kind of guy, and if we didn't keep with his tour, there was hell to pay. No PTSD. But drive me and my friends, and his friends too, looney tunes.

I think the gist of what everyone is saying is that it is a safety mechanism for her. And it takes time and the slow building of trust for her to relax.

However, part of it may not be PTSD related, and may just be a part of who she is. That you have accept with the possibility that it may not change a whole lot. That's where you need to focus on your enjoyment of the journey your way, and let her be happy and safe her way. I am willing to bet with time and patience from you that she will soften a bit, but you can't and don't really want to eradicate the part that is her nature.

Good luck :)

 

[scout86]

For the record, I come down a bit more on the @FridayJones side of the "list" question.

One of the cool things about relationships, I think, is that they give us a chance to get a glimpse of the world through someone else's eyes. At least if we want to be open to that. So, perhaps you're role IS to quietly point out the scenery on the way to the destination. Just like you've been doing. Without any expectations of change. If you say, "Hey, look at THAT!" often enough, maybe she'll feel comfortable enough to spend more time looking. I would guess it's a process. I would also guess that somewhere, deep down inside, part of her wants to relax and enjoy the scenery. But that kind of change isn't going to happen over night. You can't just flip a switch.

@FridayJones , some of what you said reinforced somethings I recently told my T about, "Why I would have made a poor parent." Or maybe why I was afraid to try. (I think I made the right choice, for me, and any never born potential kids.) But, here all this time I thought the "non-list", version of life was the most functional! You're sure you're right about that? Although, I have heard, at some length, that what I consider to be "flexibility" other consider to be "Irresponsible"......

 

[KwanYingirl]

Well it's quite obvious from these comments that there is a very good reason why rapists, if convicted, get 20 to life.

 

[Oldguy]

I spend some of my time each day restoring the sense of confidence that was stolen from me during my traumas and abuse.

I can't begin to understand what all was stolen, but I certainly do understand the need to restore it. My sufferer says similar things about needed to find what she lost, or become who she was. I love her just the way she is right now though. I want to help her restore the confidence and safety, but at times I feel like following her list or goals pushes me out of the picture.

I do not though ask him for accommodations very often

That is one of the things that is so hard for me to understand. I want to work with her not for her to help her reach what she strives for. I can't do that when she goes off alone and stops communicating her needs. I suppose some of the feelings I have about that could be my own insecurities and my intense need to protect her.

I think we try to make things possible & not disappoint others or ourselves.

Could you or someone elaborate on this?

Is she in therapy?

Not currently, but has had a lot of intense therapy. Please don't get me wrong, she really is doing incredibly well and we don't have many issues. The list thing is just one of the things I am trying to better understand about her and her motives and reasons. I want to be able to help her in a positive, productive way when she is having one of her "downer" days or "anxiety" days.

It sounds like you have expectations of her that she is unable or unwilling to do because she cannot at this time.

Not so much expectations, I am just trying to understand and be able to see things more from her point of view.

Wow, there are so many good responses here and I only had a few minutes this morning. I will come back. This is so helpful.

Please, Please, Please (all you who are sufferers), don't take anything I say as judgement or insult. That is not my intention at all. I am trying to learn and understand and the only way I know how to do that is to ask questions and invite responses to my opinions. So thank you for taking the time to respond.

 

[Deleted member 12723]

Thank you for your willingness to learn and to grow with her. I took no offense at anything you wrote.

 

[The Albatross]

Old guy, there are times when it is necessary to withdraw, when I don't want my partner helpfully available (hovering). I want him to be his authentic self, not orchestrating over me. I though have been able to teach my supporter that when I withdraw it is not his pet wound (abandonment). It has more to do with collecting myself and separating my thoughts and feelings. He now understands that it is something I do for myself to be my "better or best" self, it has no reflection on him or his own issues (my mister is a product of neglect, so he had some pretty hefty abandonment and enmeshment issues).

Time, trustworthiness, and consistency go a long way to resolving some of these partnership things. I don't know how long you've been together with your PTSDer, but if you put some time into PTSD relationships, you'll likely understand more about what the pitfalls, blips, and safety concerns are... as well as the importance of effective communication and boundary setting.

 

[KwanYingirl]

@Oldguy
I am curious. Did your girlfriends attacker get arrested and convicted? If not, she is likely keeping an eye out for his return....

 

[Laura 2]

I am trying to learn and understand and the only way I know how to do that is to ask questions and invite responses to my opinions

@Oldguy - Thanks for your responses.
You sound like a very considerate and articulate person. You've asked intelligent and respectful questions here and it occurs to me that you could ask your lady about her lists in the same way. You may even have done so - if you have, what's been her response?

 

[ghotiff]

Like Solera I can't read trauma diaries either. Can you give more information regarding what lists get in the way of living?