General Do Lists Help Or Hurt?

[Tinyflame]

I just meant @Oldguy we all (with ptsd or not) recognize to an extent what helps or hinders. Lists, sleep- whatever- whatever seems to contribute to enjoying ourselves & things going smoothly, we can do those or we may naturally do those.

I agree with much & liked @Solara 's 'safety' post & @scout86 's take on it. Sometimes we don't 'see' what we're missing unless someone else can show us. (Or vice versa). I actually end up more spontaneous because the planning can take too much out of me, or I don't know if I can manage 'itineraries'.

 

[Tinyflame]

@Oldguy (I feel funny calling you that! :) ) I was thinking 'seeing it from her point of view' is more a question of 'feeling it' from that ( ie "her") point of view.

I have hesitated to 'like' the posts that said a sufferer should accommodate 'themselves' to whatever is there. But I only hesitate because I have always done that to an extreme, really to the point of my own denial. But that's no good either.

For example, I've never acknowledged what is difficult. So for example, if crowds are difficult, I end up in crowds, feel lousy & then blame it on the event, or worse 'me'. I don't realize it has weight or effect.

I think of an example where 2 women had facial tumours removed, both were left with crooked smiles. One of the women's partners complained, the other 'automatically' adjusted how he kissed her. If it were me, I could see myself trying to for example to do things the same pre-surgery way, like sipping a glass of wine, getting it all over myself, & drawing the conclusion I'd better not go to dinner or out in public any more! :( Instead of accepting I have to sip on an angle or maybe use a different type of glass or maybe (as silly as it may seem to others a straw).

So it's good to recognize 'needs' for ourselves & if 'lists' help her for now anyway, great. I have 'tricks' to remember the mundane. And I can remember details people tell me of themself with great accuracy. But I can not remember what I'm supposed to 'think', or 'feel', when I despair, or when I am afraid, etc. Unless I have something to look at physically in print, say in a pocket. In fact, I can't even 'remember' I'm supposed to be looking at something. I think it's state-dependent (ie emotional state-dependent).

So over time we find things (hopefully) that work for us.

 

[Oldguy]

Can you possibly give an example of the lists you see along with the unrealistic expectations?

I don't want to quote any diaries or share specifics outside of that area. So, without doing so I will try to give examples. I struggle to understand the need to make lists on how to handle; Emotions, Thinking, Behavior, Integrity, Purposeful Living. Those things seem intangible to me, and open to so many outside influences. Okay, please keep in mind I am #1 Male, and #2 Old. Both of those may or may not hinder my ability to understand the extent of the lists.

So, perhaps you're role IS to quietly point out the scenery on the way to the destination. Just like you've been doing. Without any expectations of change.

Thank you so much for pointing that out. I was thinking it was a waste of time and effort, but I think I was expecting something that isn't there right now. I will continue to point things out for the enjoyment of seeing what is there. She may or may not catch a glimpse now and then, and I will choose to be okay with that.

Time, trustworthiness, and consistency go a long way to resolving some of these partnership things.

That is truth. All of those go a long way in all relationships whether spouse, sibling, friend, co-worker, or any other relationship. I can see how it is especially important with PTSD.

what's been her response?

Yes we have talked often of this and other things related to how she reacts or feels in certain situations. Sometimes she gets defensive in her responses and it makes it tough to communicate openly. However, the message I am getting here and the message from her is the same. Safety and Control are of utmost importance. There are times it seems so unnecessary and even irrational given the place or circumstances we are in. As someone pointed out though, I have no concept of being in her shoes.

It seems like a tough balancing act for us both. I have been with her for a year now and I can honestly say she is well worth the effort. By being here, I hope to gain some tools to help make it a bit easier on both of us. Thank you again for all your responses.

 

[scout86]

There are times it seems so unnecessary and even irrational given the place or circumstances we are in.

That's why they call it a "disorder"! :) It often IS irrational. (Sometimes we're even aware of it.)

I have been with her for a year now and I can honestly say she is well worth the effort.

Hold that thought! My therapist keeps saying that life is really about "loving and being loved". Interesting concept! I hope, someday, I get what he means. Sounds like you already do!

 

[Laura 2]

I struggle to understand the need to make lists on how to handle; Emotions, Thinking, Behavior, Integrity, Purposeful Living.

Oh gosh, yes I can imagine how daft/odd/unnecessary it could seem to see someone making lists about such abstracts.

What immediately sprang to mind when I read this was that the injuries leading to PTSI have so dreadfully and profoundly turned my comfy worldview inside out, upside down, blown it away, and so fundamentally caused me to rethink everything I took for granted, relied on, took as read - all the fundamental things that most people don't ever think about because they're apparently so normal, the essentials to healthy living, the basic operating principles...

These are of the largely inappropriate 'positive thinking' ilk that I believe the psychs call 'just world bias' which people need to be able to live normally: like e.g.

• 'most people are kind/trustworthy/fair/reasonable' = absolutely not true in reality;
• 'there's no reason anything really really bad will happen to me' = absolutely not true: bad things are not reasonable;
• 'our doctors care and only want to heal us' = another ANT, in the UK they mostly just want to keep their noses clean and keep in with the medical gang often to the detriment of patients;

• 'our police and criminal justice system and other services are there to protect us innocent victims' = so untrue as to be almost clinically delusional;
• 'I just have to work harder/think smarter to recover/rise above the bad things' = no man or woman is an island, when really really bad things happen 98% of people either couldn't care less, are too busy to care, turn blind eyes and even take advantage of your vulnerabilities. And no amount of your formerly successful social and/or life skills are a match for a basically callous, unfair society and deeply unjust world;

etc, etc.

So what I've found is that, after 50 years of successful, normal life in which I've dealt well with all the normal ups and downs, I've had to fundamentally rethink all these operating principles.

Nothing I (and you and most of us) learnt and functioned quite well with according to the 'rules' is real or true. That means I've had to formulate new and more accurate operating principles: I recognise your lady's headings as those under which I've also had to add my new ways of dealing with my responses to an almost completely new and very unsafe world. To my mind, it's like I imagine how it would be if I were kidnapped and dumped unceremoniously on Mars Penal Colony #1 - a very harsh and unforgiving, very uncomfortable, dangerous and certainly terrifying place.

It's easy to forget and lapse back into the old ways that seemed to work ok. They don't in the new, very disrupted world. So I have to keep reminding myself - like, it would be sheer lunacy to walk outside the Colony's oxygenated, safe compound without a tank of air and breathing mask, without an alien-zapper and communication device strapped to my belt, and without the right map and alien-speak dictionary. It's a life or death scenario. The old hands and natives just don't get why you're so fearful, some even play tricks on you to grab your ration share or just because it's 'fun' to haze the vulnerable new girl.

By definition, post traumatic stress injuries are incurred in circumstances which threaten your life and/or psychological integrity. I could go on and list all the detailed ways your lady's headings make complete sense to me vis a vis planet earth, but I hope I've said enough to explain - from my point of view at least - what sort of seismic change dynamics are quite possibly in play with the list thing here.

There are times it seems so unnecessary and even irrational given the place or circumstances we are in

Apparently irrational, though not if you're learning to get to grips with a completely new world which has quite different rules for survival!

 

[we r getting there]

Hi,
I have an 8 year old boy with PTSD, and it is sometimes very clear in observing and supporting him what might get confusing when supporting an adult with PTSD, as his motives are less complicated. It has been enlightening reading these forums to see how it manifests in adults with a longer history behind them. If this was my boy, I would answer:

- anxiety
- wanting to be normal so those he loves can feel better about him and his trauma

He knows he is different to others around him, and desperately wants it all to be OK. He wants us to be OK with him (which we are, by the way! Just trying to present it how he sees the situation!) and he wants to be OK with himself.

'Normal' people take holidays - a holiday is for him what going to the moon would be like for me. Prepare, prepare, prepare, then panic, so write lists or ask questions (we have to write what is happening each day on a whiteboard to subdue the daily panic of life). Just speculating, but maybe your partner wants to take a holiday or try other 'normal' activities because she wants to show you, herself and those she loves just how 'normal' she is? My little boy won't sit in the middle of the classroom or perform with his class at assembly in case he becomes the centre of attention and somehow reveals to the world what he thinks he is - a terrible person (obviously soooo untrue to the rest of us, he is awesome). :(

He doesn't enjoy activities or holidays - endures them until he has 'completed' it and he can return to the normal stress of his life.

I don't know how difficult it would be to have a partner in this situation, as I struggle with a child at times, but I just think 'patience, patience!!' Good luck

 

[we r getting there]

Funny that Oldguy and I both compared it to outer space......

I recognise the frustration and sadness for your loved one in your question. I feel it too for mine. I don't have answers at this stage, but you are not alone.

 

[Oldguy]

Lists have helped a lot. At first I was so skeptical about it. I see now that they are a safety net. We have traveled a bit and I have learned to appreciate the lists. I have even gone so far as to add to them on occasion.

More than anything, I appreciate the lengths suffers go through to try and be normal. What ever their definition of that is. The courage and the strength to continue to try is worthy of praise and appreciation.

Been a bit rocky here lately, but we will get through it together as much as is possible.