Relationship Lacking Accountability For Her Actions And Punishing Me

[blue_eyes18]

Has anyone ever experienced this before? My ex (sufferer) would push/pull me to death. One minute, we are the happiest couple there ever was, then the next, she would shove me away saying she couldn't handle a relationship. Then the cycle would continue.

The worst part of all was that when she would shove me away, she would manage to do it in such a hurtful fashion, I was left utterly devastated and in pieces. Shocked that the woman I thought I knew and loved could be so damn cruel. And when I would speak up for myself and let her know how much her actions were literally killing me, she would call me abusive and tell me I'm a bully, who is trying to pull her down while she's so fragile and vulnerable. Basically, no accountability for how her behaviors effected others (me, in this case). And when I would try to tell her that her behaviors effected me, she would rip me apart and threaten me and call me abusive.

This last time, I broke down because we got engaged to be married and she ripped it away after two days. And when I tried to understand why and wrap my head around everything going on and where we stood (were we done forever?), she snapped on me. I had called her breaking down, so hurt over what had just happened, and trying to get a grasp on it all, and her reaction was to basically get off the phone with me and send me the nastiest text message ever, telling me that she can easily take her life away, and that it would basically be my fault if she did, and that she's trying to live, so why do I insist on trying to pull her down (pull her down? By expressing I'm upset?)? That I'm completely overwhelming her, and why am I trying to tear her down when she's fighting to live? etc. (Tear her down?? I've always been so supportive!) The text went on and on for pages about how I'm bullying her while she's so vulnerable, etc. So basically, she ripped my heart out, then tore me apart for responding to how it made me feel.

Has anyone ever experienced this? That if you try to hold your sufferer accountable for what they have done and how theyve hurt you, they tell you that you are abusive? I guess I've just never experienced this before. I've never had my heart ripped out then been made to feel guilty and that it was my fault for the hurt I was subsequently feeling/experiencing. That my hurt and suffering was abuse on her. It's like telling someone who you've just made cry that their tears are abusive to you. Has anyone ever experienced this? I just am so lost. I feel so beaten down and punished.

 

[nursenurse]

Hugs, @blue_eyes18. Rest assured that you are not alone here in your feelings and experiences.

Are you still in contact with her? What are you doing for yourself? Remember, you need to be number one in your own life, the rest will fall into place eventually. Honestly, I would change all of my contact details so that I could not be contacted. You need to process all that has happened and heal yourself. This is beyond PTSD and is so abusive towards you, and shows how in denial and ill equipped that she is to take responsibility for her actions.

Move on with your life, there are other women who are more deserving. But take your time.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

Is she borderline? She's being very manipulative and playing the victim role to a "t"... The thing about personality disorders is that you can sit here and try to make some sort of reason out of what is going on, but you will never find it. It really is like living in the twilight zone. You will never get your bearings, and nothing will ever make sense. You really do just have to accept it *as is* and let it go. Trying to rationalize the behavior will drive you insane.

 

[Anarchy]

More hugs, if you'll have them. You are not alone.

I will reluctantly agree with what @nursenurse has written, not because I doubt it, but because I've seen what you've just had, from inside and outside of relationships.

Your girlfriend's personal demons do not appear to be something which you can deal with - much as you might want to help her and much as she might call for your help - they are hers, and hers alone. If you have any of the post traumatic stress responses - you have plenty demons of your own to deal with, and they won't play nicely with hers.

I can't say that she has BPD, but her actions read like those of people whom I know who do have borderline characteristics. I have a couple of female friends who have those charcteristics, they are close friends, but my goodness, speaking for myself, and only for myself, I would never have another relationship with a woman whom I thought I'd detected the slightest hint of borderline charcteristics in - I simply can not cope with the supercharged emotional pogostick and massive insecurity that they're afflicted with.

I love them as friends, I know they hurt like hell inside, but I know what being in a relationship with someone who has borderline charachteristics does to me.

Reading the thread from a few days back about experiences with DBT, I realize that a good number of forum members here have BPD (arguably it is on the spectrum of responses to childhood trauma), some might comment with suggestions. I've found some insights which have been useful to me personaly on Debbie Corso's sites. she has BPD and is active in teaching DBT*.

___________________________________________________
*as well as dialectical behavioural therapy, I've seen references in literature to "schema" based CBT using both young's formulation and more Beckian CBT models giving positive results in clinical trials with BPD sufferers.

 

[blue_eyes18]

Nursenurse - I've FINALLY woken up and now see the forest from the trees. I finally see that I've completely neglected myself and placed myself dead last for so long. I am finally ready to embrace that this is over and I need to take care of myself first and foremost. I feel like I took so much abuse in the meantime, though. I don't know why I allowed it. I think it's mainly because when we would get back together, she seemed so sweet and loving, that I convinced myself that somehow the problems must have all been me. Ugh. I do need to process through everything that's happened. I spent two years in this back and forth hell, walking on eggshells, and wondering if I was going to get dumped or not at any given time. It was truly a nightmare.

Solara - you ask if she's borderline and many of my friends who have seen and been there with me through this entire relationship have asked me the same. Some are specialists in psychology. Of course, I can't diagnose her, myself. But she has never informed me of any diagnosis of BPD. I have certainly wondered, though. She claims all of this is just side effects of her PTSD. Maybe it is? But I have met so many on this site who do not behave this way. Then again, maybe they are further along in their healing. But she is absolutely masterful at playing the victim. Always has been. And she's incredibly good at getting her way. If I expressed even the tiniest little bit of frustration over something she did that bothered me, she broke up with me over it. Next thing I know, I'm apologizing for the fact that SHE upset ME. It was crazy. The whole punishing me for being upset though really is the icing on the cake. She's done this so many times. She gets with me then leaves me then gets with me and leaves me again, and then attacks me and tells me I'm pulling her down for expressing my feelings on the madness. That I need to just deal with it on my own and I'm needy or some crazy other thing. My life became so unstable because she was so unstable. I've never experienced being dumped over literally nothing. One time I went to work and things were fine. I left work and called her and she dumped me. Another time, we got back together and had an amazing dinner and romantic evening together. She wrote me a long letter telling me how much she loved me and wanted nothing more than to be with me. Then 12 hours later, she broke up with me again, saying a relationship was too much pressure and she couldn't handle it. It just baffles me. Is that PTSD? Or borderline? I have no clue. But I certainly am over feeling like this.

Anarchy, you mentioned DBT. Let me ask you this. Is DBT commonly used for PTSD sufferers? I do know for a fact that her therapist was working on DBT with her. What exactly is it used for? I always thought it was predominantly used in therapy for BPD. Why would a therapist use DBT for PTSD? Does it's use mean that she has borderline traits? You mentioned that your friends display some BPD characteristics. It's impossible to create a stable relationship with these women. I tried my hardest! I just couldn't do it. As much as I wish I could stand by her, for one, she would never let me. And two, I think I'd lose my sanity first. She would always say I'm overwhelming her and she just needed to breath. But I wouldn't even be doing anything! All I wanted was to just love her. She couldn't let me. It was always a battle. And I always lost.

 

[Anarchy]

Hi Blue_eyes,
I don't normally dump big direct quotes from text books, but I think in this case it is justified:
_______________________________________________________________
From Westbrook, Kennerley & Kirk; 2011, Introduction to CBT, 2nd ed:

Developments in CBT

The Radical behavioural Interventions

What are they?

Some Practitioners and reserarchers have developed cognitive behavioural interventions that have a clear cognitive component but emphasise the importance of the bahavioural aspect of treatment. These include Linehan's dialectical behavioural therapy (1993), acceptance and committment therapy (Hayes, Strosahl & Wilson 1999) and Jacobson's behavioural activation (Martell, Addis & Jacobson 2001). Below is a brief summary of each of these increasingly popular approaches.

Dialectical Behavioural Therapy (DBT)

Linehan, Heard & Armstrong (1993) devised this intervention specifically for para suicidal women diagnosed as having borderline personality disorder (BPD), a diagnosis associated with poor treatment outcomes. DBT comprises a broad array of cognitive and behavioural strategies, tailored to adress problems associated with BPD, including suicidal behaviour. The core skills taught are:

• emotion regulation
• interpersonal effectiveness
• distress tolerance
• mindfulness, and
• self management

Treatment requires individual and group sessions to run concurrently.

The defining characvteristic of DBT is an emphasis on "dialectics" or the reconcilliation of opposites - for example, achieving self acceptance whilst recognizing the need to change, or balancing alternate the high and low aspirations which are common in those with BPD. Together with this focus on dialectical processes, there is more emphasis on process than on structure and content.

DBT differs from CBT in several other respects. Rather than aiming to challenge, it promotes acceptance and validation of the client's behaviour and reality. The thereputic relationship is deemed central to DBT, and there is an emphasis on identifying and adressing therapy-interfering behaviours.

DBT has now been evaluated in several trials comparing it with treatment as usual (for example see Bohus et al. 2004). Overall it is associated with better retention rates and is effective in reducing self-harmful behaviours. Although DBT appears to diminish a particularly dangerous behaviour, so far its effectiveness seems quite specific, and it does not necessarily target the wide range of problems suffered by many clients with BPD.
__________________________________________________

Assuming that DBT hasn't been rolled out for more conditions in the past three or four years, I don't think that leaves much room for doubt about what her diagnosis was. BPD is not rare, and it certainly can be co-morbid with PTSD. There are people here who have both diagnoses, one of them might yet join the thread and offer a perspective from the inside.

she may well have had good reason for not being willing to tell you that she had a diagnosis for BPD - there is a lot of stigma associated with it, I think there is pretty good evidence that once the people in a BPD sufferer's life have the condition explained to them, many actually become less sympathetic! and the people whom I know who have borderline traits, also have massive problems with abandonment anxiety too.

I'm confused at this point as to whether you yourself have PTSD, or were a supporter?

From your descriptions, it appears that your ex has subjected you to some very severe gas lighting (fecked your head), attempting to destroy your boundaries and your perceptions of personal responsibility and reality. It also appears that she has attempted to drag you allong with her as she experienced her hugely dysregulated emotions. Whether you had PTSD or not, the damage which that abuse causes, can take time and effort to heal, and your boundaries and self esteem have to be re-built.

From my own experience, and the observations of friends who've had (and still have) relationships with people with borderline traits, I have huge dificulty forgiving the ones who gaslight. Not all people with borderline traits do gaslight - some are just emotionally dysregulated and vulnerable. The people who do indulge in gaslighting seem to be very well able to keep that aspect under control until they've got their latest prey hooked - if they can do that, then they do have control over the behaviour and they know that the behaviour is wrong.

hope this helps.

 

[joeylittle]

Assuming that DBT hasn't been rolled out for more conditions in the past three or four years, I don't think that leaves much room for doubt about what her diagnosis was. BPD is not rare, and it certainly can be co-morbid with PTSD. There are people here who have both diagnoses, one of them might yet join the thread and offer a perspective from the inside.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23712109

I don't have both disorders; I have PTSD and major depressive disorder. I also have parasuicidal behavior, which is a Borderline trait - but I've not been diagnosed as borderline, and truly don't think I am.

The link above is semi-relevant; it's to an abstract concerning an application of DBT for PTSD treatment in individuals. I know from practice that learning both CBT and DBT have been essential to my depression management, before I was presenting symptoms and diagnosed for PTSD. DBT has what I think are amazing ways to understand tolerating internal distress, I think mindfulness is a really powerful tool, and I really don't know what I would have ever done without it.

CBT is a bundle of therapeutic concepts but it doesn't have a "protocol" (way in which it is to be implemented) in and of itself. There's a kind of progression just by virtue of the fact that you have to learn something in some order - but you can also just cherrypick.

CBT for PTSD has a protocol that one follows.

DBT for borderline, there is a protocol. That's the three-pronged, six month, group+individual+coaching program.

Just DBT, no protocol, only therapeutic concepts that you can apply as you'd like. And DBT can be great for managing extreme emotions.

Why would a therapist use DBT for PTSD? Does it's use mean that she has borderline traits?

Just hearing about your partner - I can absolutely understand why, borderline or not, it would make sense to a therapist for her to have a DBT-heavy approach. She's very volatile. Without getting into counting criterion, she sounds like she has borderline traits - but that doesn't really relate to whether she has the disorder. What I think would matter, though, is that if she really does have borderline also, and it would be important to have it diagnosed, I don't think doing DBT in therapy is actually going to help. Because that's just using concepts. DBT protocol is very, very rigid, prescribed, and regular. It's that way for a reason - people managing borderline need a massive amount of structure and accountability in their treatment.

Does she self-harm?

Another time, we got back together and had an amazing dinner and romantic evening together. She wrote me a long letter telling me how much she loved me and wanted nothing more than to be with me. Then 12 hours later, she broke up with me again, saying a relationship was too much pressure and she couldn't handle it. It just baffles me. Is that PTSD? Or borderline?

Or being an asshole? Regardless of her mental health status, she is not capable of being in a stable relationship based on mutual trust. It's just heartbreaking, because you truly sound like an incredibly patient, loving person. But to me, she's just being emotionally abusive towards you, and that's never OK. And honestly - my personal, non-doctor opinion is that the excessive outpouring of love (writing long letters is kind of like pouring buckets of love over someone and they have no power to stop you, because you're in control of the exchange) followed by the opposite extreme, break-up - well, it seems a little more typical in PTSD-only behavior for the expressions of love to be meant, but pretty grounded, and the push-aways to be more avoidant or rooted in self-blame. So yeah, this does seem personality-disorder-ish, whether it's borderline specifically or something else.

Sorry for the super-rambling post. Just feeling for you.

 

[blue_eyes18]

Thank you, Anarchy, for that great information. It's really good to know. By the way, really quick, to answer your question, I am not diagnosed with PTSD. She is the one diagnosed and I'm the supporter. No diagnosis here, unless I develop it from this relationship. Lol. Sorry, bad joke.

You pointed out all the things DBT is used for:

• emotion regulation
• interpersonal effectiveness
• distress tolerance
• mindfulness, and
• self management

She needs every single one of those things. Her emotions are so completely dysregulated. Everything is catastrophic to her. A test, a presentation, if someone gives her the slightest bit of criticism. One time, a guy at her workplace, who she doesn't even care for or is not even friends with, made a comment about her work performance. He said "yeah, she has a tendency to do that.." - in reference to someone mentioning her not showing up to work. She used to miss work constantly and it was a damn miracle she didn't get fired. So in effect, his statent was correct. She DID have a tendency to miss work. But according to her, she was turning a new leaf and learning to be accountable and reliable. So hearing that was so negative and it just broke her down. I tried to be supportive and remind her that she was doing a great job and to not let comment get to her. But if one comment like that is capable of throwing your life into a tailspin, I would say there is some serious dysregulation going on.

As far as interpersonal effectiveness, she clearly has work to do. Or else I wouldn't be on this site lol. Obviously her relationship with me was a mess. I just feel punished and beaten down.

Distress tolerance kind of relates back to emotional regulation in my mind. Everything to her is overwhelming.

Self-management is definitely something she needs, as her life is completely out of control. She can't keep up daily functions like work, school, and a relationship all at the we time. She took the summer off and lived at home and didn't work or go to school. And even then, she managed to have her life still feel unmanageable and out of control. So once she reintroduced school and work back into the mix, all hell broke loose even more.

I do feel that I was subjected to gaslighting. I've questioned whether my perception of reality was completely off. Her responses and reactions to me have made me question whether or not it's my fault or if I really did deserve those reactions. I've felt completely crazy. It's a horrible feeling.

Joeylittle - she isn't in a six month group and individual therapeutic setting. Not that I know of, at least. According to her, her therapist worked for thirty minutes on whatever they were woking on that particular week, and then spent the last thirty minutes on DBT. That always confused me a bit as to why they would do that. Is it like you said, just something that can be used as she likes?

I agree, that it's not helpful unless it is diagnosed. I brought this up to her in the very beginning of our relationship, actually, when the push/pull began. My friends would notice the trend and start to ask me questions. And I would tell them what was happening and describe the behavior, and they brought up the idea that sheay have BPD. So I asked her one time, flat out. Did she think it was possible? She said no, she didn't think she did, but that she would check with her therapist. She claims her therapist said she didn't, so I left it be. But I just don't know where else some of these behaviors would be coming from and why.

Like was mentioned, the distancing and avoidance was always what I considered to be typical in PTSD relationships. But she never really did that. She would flat out just shove me away and dump me and do and say really hurtful things. I mean HURTFUL. One time she slept with someone else the day after breaking up with me. Another time, she blatantly called that same guy to pick her up from my apartment because she was breaking up with me and she knew that would bring me to my knees. Other times, she would just say the most hurtful things. Or if nothing else, it would be completely spontaneous. One minute we are on vacation together and so seemingly in love. Then the next thing I know, flat out dumped. And god forbid I get frustrated with her treatment. Then the suicidal stuff comes out and I'm abusive and manipulative. One time she actually broke up with me claiming that I was manipulative and manipulating her emotions! Can you believe that? Typical gas lighting right there.

Thanks for everyone so far taking the time to respond.

 

[blue_eyes18]

I guess I just have the hardest time feeling like I did something to deserve this. I always blame myself for some reason. I keep reflecting back on the situation and try to find a way to make what happened my fault.

All I know is she was true to her typical fashion and broke things off. We had been so back and forth for so long, the last handful of months in particular were really bad. We would be broken up, then we would see each other and get back together. Then two days later, she would dump me again. On and on and on. So this past time, we met up and spent two days together. Her telling me that she loves me and would marry me in a heartbeat. That she's always known I'm who she wants to be with, etc. So I stupidly ask her. She says yes and the whole nine yards. We spend the next two days together in perfect bliss. I'm so happy. She seems so happy. Then I take her home and next thing I know, I'm taking a nap and I wake up to the sound of a text message. I read it and it's her telling me she can't handle that kind of a commitment and she's sorry. I call her and we talk and she then tells me she needs to be alone and single. I want to rip my hair out. I try to understand and make sense of everything. The more I try, the less I understand. Then she hangs up on me because I'm judt not getting it or why. So I'm left even more frustrated. I called her again the next night because I was still so hurt and confused. She answers and as soon as I start trying to understand again what on earth made her go from knowing for certain she wanted to marry me to wanting to be single in an hours span of time, she gets angry at me and says she refuses to talk about this again and hangs up on me and blocks me. She claims it's likeI'm harassing her. Apparently being confused and trying to wrap your head around something is harassment.?? She blocked me for two whole weeks. It's unbearable and feels like torture. So finally I hear from her after two weeks and we talk. She tells me that she's just not ready for a relationship and hopes some day, when she's more stable, we can be together. Then a couple of days later, she calls me and we just talk and catch up. I get off the phone and realize my head and heart aren't in the right place to just be friends. So I call her back and am really sad, and express not knowing how to do this. Not knowing how to just be friends and that my heart doesn't want to let go. She responds by then telling me she's pretty much moved on from me and says she suddenly doesn't see a future with me afterall, and I need to get over it. I break down because she had said she DID see a future for us down the road, and now, two days later, she didn't apparently see one anymore. So I feel so tortured and confused. Like what the hell do you want from me and where do we stand?? I'm trying to be mindful of her anxiety but also cinsidery own confusion as well. So then shesays she has to go and we will talk about this more on Thur as she is stressing out. This was Tuesday. So I let her go and call her on Thursday. Thursday rolls around and I call her like was asked. She says she can't talk and I tell her I understand and to get back to me when she can. I wake up the next morning to that hateful message telling me I'm causing her to want to kill herself, etc.

 

[joeylittle]

According to her, her therapist worked for thirty minutes on whatever they were woking on that particular week, and then spent the last thirty minutes on DBT. That always confused me a bit as to why they would do that. Is it like you said, just something that can be used as she likes?

Yep. It means the therapist is teaching her some DBT concepts, maybe using it as a framework to talk about things she's experiencing, and trying to give her skills. None of it will do anything if she's not really taking it on-board and applying it.

If it's true her therapist said she didn't have BPD, it could be because he is right, or it could be because of whichever criteria in the old DSM he believes should be absolutely present. Even from the handful of psychiatrists I've talked to, they all emphasized a different aspect of the disorder as being most prominent. In the DSM V, it's a much, much looser set of criteria.

I guess I just have the hardest time feeling like I did something to deserve this. I always blame myself for some reason. I keep reflecting back on the situation and try to find a way to make what happened my fault.

Are you in therapy for yourself? You truly don't need to be putting this on yourself. You didn't do anything to deserve this, and you really aren't provoking it.

So then shesays she has to go and we will talk about this more on Thur as she is stressing out. This was Tuesday. So I let her go and call her on Thursday. Thursday rolls around and I call her like was asked. She says she can't talk and I tell her I understand and to get back to me when she can. I wake up the next morning to that hateful message telling me I'm causing her to want to kill herself, etc.

Just in case you think YOU are the cause of her stress - you are not. And just look at how bizarrely she bounces back and forth...I think you are really extremely tolerant. I get it; loving someone makes everything so much more complicated. But when I read about the things you have been through with her, I just want to bundle you up onto a private jet and have you whisked away to a remote island where you can have a full spa treatment every day for a week. I mean, it's legitimately abusive, her behavior.

Can you get away? I don't mean forever, I mean take yourself on a two-week visit to people you are close to in some other place entirely, just re-connect with what loving relationships are actually like? Not because I think it will "teach you something" about how to deal with her, just because I think you've been trying to navigate this maze for so long, you might just need a big, big breath of fresh air.

 

[blue_eyes18]

Joeylittle, thank you so much for such a wonderful reply. It was just what I needed.

I was not aware that the DSM V had a much looser set of criteria. But I just don't know if I can get on board with her behavior just being that of PTSD. It seems every time I post a question on here about her behavior, the responses all immediately alert me to borderline. Or suggest something else is also at play here. Apparently even to those familiar with PTSD and how it manifests in relationships, or those who have firsthand experience as sufferers, all seem to say that it doesn't sound like PTSD alone.

I'm not in therapy, although it has become clear after this relationship that I may have some things I need to resolve before proceeding into another potentially equally destructive relationship. I don't know where this lack of boundaries for myself come from. I don't know why I have it engrained into my head that any sort of bad or abusive treatment inflicted upon me is because of something I've done to deserve it. I need to learn firm boundaries and how to enforce them. It's weird because I'm not the doormat type. Not at all. I have plenty of self respect and am a very confident person. Yet with her, it all flew out the window. It's very bizarre and I wish I understood why.

God, thank you for saying that I'm not the cause of her stress. Seriously THANK YOU. I've been killing myself, replaying it over and over in my head, beating myself up for apparently stressing her so much with my supposed 'neediness.' That's where I do try to make things my fault. I worried I was to blame and caused/deserved her response. And that maybe I really was the reason she was so stressed and overwhelmed. She told me that I was going to make her completely cave if I didn't stop pushing her. I wasn't even pushing her. My last response was to tell her to get back to me when she could, even though it really put my feelings completely on hold. I felt as though I actually placed her needs ahead of mine by being patient and understanding. But low and behold, I get a horrific text message instead. So it really isnt my fault she is so stressed??

Lol I wish you could wrap me up and send me to an island with spa treatment every day. I would KILL for that. Unfortunately, the answer to your question is no, I can't get away. I so badly wish I could. But I'm in law school right now and can't miss class. I also work weekends, so I literally have no days off. Life is tough right now lol. If I could take a vacation, believe me, I would. I truly do need a breath of fresh air and to just get away. I've been stuck in this constant state of hell for so long, I honestly have forgotten what normal, loving relationships are. I forget what being treated lovingly and respectfully feels like. That's so sad :( I'm finally starting to see that. I'm just so afraid of resorting back to blaming myself or coming up with excuses for her. I'm finally breaking free and seeing the light. I just don't want to go back! That's why your reminder that this wasn't my fault and that I did not cause her distress to merit that response was so important to hear. Thank you for your support and kind words. Truly. From the bottom of my heart.

 

[Anarchy]

@blue_eyes18 here's a hug if you'll accept one from a male.

I've just looked up the diagnostic criteria from DSM V, IV and ICD 10. If a credentialled professional had the sort of case history which you have presented, available to them, and didn't diagnose her as having BPD, I'd be very curious to know why not.

She's used some extremely powerful weapons on you, in very devious ways and over a long period of time - sex, love, tears, withdrawal, guilt trips, shoving you away and promptly shagging someone else then blaming you for it...

the effects of that are arguably worse than having ended up on the rough end of the CIA's extraordinary rendition program - at least people who are disappeared and tortured by dictatorships, have strength in the knowledge that they are being wronged.

I know that I have just used an extreme analogy, I think that it is valid and I hope that it helps to allow you to forgive yourself whenever you find that you are blaming yourself for getting dragged into her little gulag / little north korea / little Abu Ghraib, or, blaming yourself for things which happened when you were in there.

Until we've actually been there, we had no way of knowing what we were gradually being led into. I know where you've been, and what it feels like both when you are still inside there and after getting out.

I've found some of Richard Grennan's (Spartan Live Coach's) youtubes insightful. he's been in there too. He's also careful to point out that many women who have borderline traits are not at all abusive.

@joeylittle, are "conversations" private? I'm not worried about admin looking in on them, It's just if Blue_eyes wants to contact me with a PM, there are things which I can share even in a small group, that I wouldn't be comfortable sharing on open forum. many thanks

@blue_eyes18 saying as you're at law school, try taking a look at Frank van Dun's piece on "natural law" linked on the left hand side of his homepage at the university of Ghent - it is a really good piece on inter-personal boundaries and individual responsibility for actions. van Dun is lecturer in the philosophy of law, and comes accross as a thoroughly likeable guy.