Boundaries.

[ms spock]

am also taking into account that it was online, and communication can easily be misinterpreted and misconstrued online and it's always better to leave it until we are speaking face to face, so that is one major factor here.

Conflict is never good to do online.

Taking drugs with people like that can be pretty dangerous emotionally - people who have substance abuse issues are not people you really need to be hanging out with Philippa. But you didn't know that woman was being messed with by being given magic mushrooms. Gizmo is right in my opinion - you need to self care and self love over your lost friend.

I have to say I feel for you having a crappy time with it all.

 

[scout86]

I don't think you have to respect everyone's boundaries when they simply ask you to stop.

IS that actually what you meant to say? When does "Stop" not mean stop, exactly?

 

[Philippa]

When someone asks me to stop doing/saying something I feel is important... I change my frame of reference. It's no longer simply important to me. It's now a question of how important is it to me? Is it worth losing a friend (or job, etc.) over? Or is the friend / job / etc. more important to me than the issue I'm het up over?

The answer varies.

Thanks, I guess in this case calling her out on her stupidity, lack of care and irresponibility was more important than the friendship. Up until that point I had no idea of how callous and careless she could be. Of course I can be careless at times, when it comes to making decisions and sometimes I f*ck up, but that was a pretty serious lack of duty of care with someone she called a 'friend' and her reaction to it was evident of her lack of care for me as well.

 

[Philippa]

To begin with, if I understand correctly, the first person did something that actually could have lead to serious harm, maybe death, of someone else, and she's worried about you bumming too much weed?

That's about the size and shape of it, except I didn't bum the weed, it was offered to me and I accepted the offer about 4 times over the time span of 4 weeks. I don't smoke weed regularly and would have been perfectly happy just hanging out with them and not smoking it.

I'll hazard a guess and say she's either got something going on where she can't see that her actions might have bad consequences or she feels guilty and doesn't have the guts to admit it.

Yes, this. This is what I said to her, that I felt like she was manipulating me into feeling guilty as a strategy to avoid feeling her own embarrassment/guilt at what she knew she'd done. That's when she told me to back off.

Some people are what one of my REAL friends likes to call "a waste of skin".

There had been other things that I did not like about her over the years, but I tried weighing them up with the things I did love about her. We are both artists and I learned so much from her, and was inspired by her many times. I liked her family and was always made to feel safe and part of her family...which I suppose was something I really needed, having been estranged from my own for over 2 years now. But there were things that I felt very uncomfortable and unsettled about her character. This was the straw that broke the camels back.

I find that totally confusing and have no idea what to make of it. I hate it when someone gets upset, it appears to be because of something I said or did, and then they refuse to tell me what it was. I've had it happen. Got no answer for it so I'll be interested in what comes up here.

Yes, me too. And when I tried to give a more realistic version of things to him he didn't reply and hasn't since, so I don't know what to make of it. I don't get people who never say anything serious online. I can handle sarcasm and satire and if they are joking around I can tell, but when everything they say is not serious, I find that irritating. I've had boyfriends like that and I didn't like it at all. Of course they said I had no sense of humour...I did, just didn't find theirs particularly funny.

Are there times when maybe making your point gets to be so important that it gets in your way?

Good question. I would say that sometimes I can get too caught up in trying to explain myself or be understood that I am not wise in my decisions to continue the interactions, and would be better off walking away.

Another good friend used to tell me, "Sometimes you have to ask yourself, 'What do I want? the shear joy of a really good fight or to actually accomplish something?' Because you usually can use the same approach to accomplish both."

I don't like to think that I like to fight, and I've been told before that I like conflict...which I denied, because I honestly thought I didn't and thought I was just lashing out due to the ptsd, but sometimes I wonder whether I am actually one of those weirdos who likes to fight? It's in direct opposition to what I thought I was like years ago. Both times I can say genuinely that I felt like I was being unfairly judged and made out to be childish, which triggered me back to times when I would get into conflict with my mother, and she would end up calling me childish...which I felt was a projection on her part. This seems to be what happened with the woman I mentioned first. With the guy I'm not sure what happened? I think he was just having a bad day and I got caught up in correcting his wrong statement about it being "always", when it was really only 3 times in 2 years. I can't stand exaggeration when it comes to someone criticising me. My mother also did that a lot.

 

[Philippa]

I don't think you have to respect everyone's boundaries when they simply ask you to stop.

A part of me thinks this way as well. It was an important issue and she tried to avoid it by turning the focus around and placing it on my 'bad behaviour'...which my mother used to do a lot when I was younger and lived with them. It triggered that memory in me.

She went on to tell me that I was taking my mother issues out on her and disrespecting her as a mother and a woman when I told her that I felt uncomfortable around her and that I had to walk on eggshells around her and couldn't be myself as everything I said she would take offense to.

It's interesting because I was also on the other side of the fence of a similar scenario many years ago, and this scenario triggered a memory of that time in my life, when I was the one who had a lot going on and was in the middle of trying to patch things up with my parents (after being in a d;v shelter and homeless for 6 weeks after a fight where my mother employed gaslighting on me, and I was severely symptomatic with ptsd and got pretty violent and tried to kick her.

My father kicked me out after hitting me and other stuff. It was a pretty intense time, and this woman I knew called me up to try and talk through an issue she had with me and a behaviour I exhibited, which I admit was not the nicest thing to do to her, but I felt justified about it at the time.

I was in the middle of speaking with my parents and she wanted me to drop everything and listen to her. I put up some boundaries, and was polite but said my priority was to talk to my parents right now and I would call her when I was finished. She kept talking and my reaction was to say something very insulting to get her to go away. It worked and she defriended me as a result.

I find it interesting how we get to be on either side of the fence with experiences in life, and learn that each perspective is valid and right from that particular point of view.

Your "friend" did an incredibly stupid/thoughtless/irresponsible thing by giving that woman drugs, and she deserved to have her ass called on the table for it!

I thought so too. If I had known before hand that she was a patient and on meds, I would never have indulged with them and would have left there and then. I'm not trained to deal with that situation and I felt angry that she put me in that position, and then refused to acknowledge or hear me when I tried to speak openly about it. She didn't care...about that woman, or about me. Yes, the woman was responsable for what she puts in her body, but I think with someone who is prone to psychosis there is also a duty of care among so called friends, and she failed miserably in that regard.

Look at it this way, if you didn't call her out on it, then you'd be saying her behavior is ok by dropping the subject as this would be a sign that you accept what she's done.

Yes, exactly. I felt very strongly about it and was outraged when she told me.

would you want to be friends with someone who has so little regard for another as to give someone drugs when she really shouldn't be taking any?

No way. I couldn't believe she would actually do that. I still can't. I thought I knew her and that she cared about people, but she really doesn't. She told me I was "childish and mean" and had no energy for someone like me in her life!! Unbelievable.

The truth is that people grow over time. The "lifelong" friend thing is more of a rare thing as most people change over time.

Yes, I do understand that friendships don't have to last forever and they evolve or devolve. This was certainly an unexpected and rude awakening. I just feel empty about it all right now. There's nothing to mourn really.

Some people grow apart because both people grow, and some people grow apart because one grows while the other stays the same (sad, really). Perhaps these friendships have come to a natural end? Most people come and go from our lives and aren't here to stay.

Yes, and I think that although we have both experienced our ups and downs over the last few years, it feels like she has hit an all time low with her habits and is a real mess. I have my issues as well, but I don't 'cope' by writing myself off every night and acting like an absolute idiot. We've gone in very different directions and I'm under no obligation to help her through her hard times at this stage. She has proven to be unworthy of the bother and time and energy. She really treated me like I was the turd in this scenario and I wasn't. It was her. I guess that's what projection is all about though. When people feel uncomfortable or bad about something they did, they can't face it so they place it on someone else and hand them the shit sandwich. A truly loathesome aspect of humans.

 

[Philippa]

I like what @FridayJones wrote and thought I'd continue with an alternative. My thought process is what am I trying to achieve and how likely will achieve it. For example if you want the woman to admit fault, but she doesn't have the personality to do this...then that's a cue to back down. Sometimes me just working out what I really want to achieve is enough to dampen my need to achieve it.

The interaction consisted of me bringing the subject up in a round about way, like "hey, that situation with xyz was pretty full on". She then said "I think you are placing too much focus on xyz. By the way, I think you are taking the hospitality of this house for granted...I'm telling you this because you are such a close friend".

Her asking me to stop came when I reacted to her trying to turn the whole thing around and make me out to be the bad guy. I did no tpursue the original subject because by then I was defending myself from being called a moocher!

 

[Philippa]

FB is way too triggering for fledglings who are in the process of healing. Jmho. Either use it as a way to exchange information and learn new things or else just be polite, proper and keep it superficial for so many reasons, one is being able to lose one's grounding too quickly and certainly the sense of having one's boundaries overstepped by too many people, too fast, too intensely for proper regulation.

This is good advice. I do sometimes get sucked into all that. I never wanted to join in the first place, but I do have some good friends who I enjoy messing around with on there now, I just need to get better at the things you mentioned. Thanks. :)

 

[Philippa]

Someone who did this was not going to give you honesty.

I hadn't quite realised that at the time, but you're totally right about that. I was still under the impression that she was a friend and actually cared.

You got sand thrown in your eyes, and then you got roped in by manipulation that you were the problem.

Yep and she really dug into me. I could see that was what was happening, so happily I did not buy into it, but I still was affected by the force of her hostility and attack. It just came as a total surprise. She had not behaved that way towards me prior to that moment, though there were little hints of that in her character in the weeks leading up to it, which I put up boundaries and said no to her attempts to use me on one or two occasions.

I do what you do as well - push when someone is gaslighting or manipulating, and sometimes I push too far - or I call it and things fall apart because like you I won't put up with someone being treated that way. Someone who would give someone so vulnerable magic mushrooms and then turn it around to say you were bludging off them. It was just gaslighting Philippa.

Thanks Ms Spock. It's nice to know someone is the same as me in this way. I just feel really strongly about that behaviour and won't just sit back passively and accept it, even though I know that most people are cowards and won't look at it even if I do confront them. It makes the go further into denial and their reaction to be faced with it can be brutal.

In a way she did remind me a lot of my mother. She behaved this way with me very often, and it drove me nuts. She is a mother as well, and she was right...I DID disrespect her, BECAUSE I didn't respect her after that, just like I don't respect my own mother for how she would constantly bury her head in the sand like an ostrich and inflict all kinds of hurtful behaviours on me as a way of avoiding looking at her shit.

 

[Philippa]

Conflict is never good to do online.

True dat.

Taking drugs with people like that can be pretty dangerous emotionally - people who have substance abuse issues are not people you really need to be hanging out with Philippa.

Yes, and I was good at staying away for ages. I had hardly any friends as a result because so many people in this town take drugs or drink excessively. I was trying to find a happy medium where I could indulge now and then and have some fun, but not get roped into the lifestyle...like they are. It wasn't good for me though, and I knew it. I was just enjoying having girlfriends to hang out with again. It had been so long since I'd had female friends I got along with...but it turned to shit pretty quickly.

But you didn't know that woman was being messed with by being given magic mushrooms.

No, and had I known I would never have stayed or taken them with her. I would also have asked them if it was a sane thing to be doing what they were doing if I'd known. Prior to that night I had been around this other woman and enjoyed her company a lot. I knew nothing about her condition. I was looking forward to a fun night, but she was totally different to the other times I'd been around her this night. I felt held hostage by her and she was saying some really disturbing stuff.

I have to say I feel for you having a crappy time with it all.

Thankyou. I've had so many supposed "friendships" turn sour like this...and drugs were always a factor. When I move away from people who take drugs as a lifestyle, it's much more peaceful and healthy...but I sometimes do get bored and they can be entertaining as well.

 

[Philippa]

I know this thread is pretty much dead but I need to vent a bit more about this scenario, as I've had some stuff churning in my head since yesterday.

So, the woman who lives with the woman I had the falling out with...and we were just starting to become new friends, but the woman I am no longer friends with was displaying some weird jealousy around me being friends with her friend (Ah, back to the schoolyard...I never left). And so now, after a mistake I made with her, which I apologised for, she started to speak to me again and I thought we were ok, but yesterday I replied to her on facebook, after receiving an invitation to her birthday celebrations at her house (the house she shares with my now enemy)...and I was a bit taken aback that she would even invite me.

I said in chat that I would love to celebrate with her, but I do not feel comfortable going to her house, for obvious reasons...then offered to give her a massage for her birthday, and asked if she wanted to go out sometime either before or after the day.

She replied telling me that she did not mean to invite me!!

I was in the shower before I read the reply and wondered if she had just accidentally invited me, and this turned out to be the case. I was ok about it and left things amicably. She then came back on and said sorry and that she wished me no ill intentions (which I thought was odd...why would she?) and it became obvious that now she has decided she doesn't like me after all after previously acting as though we were friends and all was forgiven. I don't want to read too into it...this is just how it seemed to me at the time.

I honestly cannot be bothered with women like this! I've had it before. The fickleness. One minute everything is ok and all is forgiven and weeks later you're back in the bad books only she forgot to mention it to you or why? Suddenly she's just got the shits and isn't speaking to you, after being fine? WTF?

This is why I prefer men as friends.

I was grateful to at least know where I now stand with her, even if it was confusing initially. I'd rather a person be honest about not liking me than pretending for years that they do. I wished her a happy birthday and blessings and left it amicable. I still don't know if by her reply "I understand the discomfort from both sides of the fence" she was saying SHE felt uncomfortable around me, or whether it meant that she understood how the other women also feels uncomfortable with me? I'm guessing she is referring to the other woman, but by her even feeling the need to say that she wished me no ill intentions, it made me think that now she no longer likes me, despite acting as though we were friends a few weeks back, communicating and chatting with me?

I can't stand that about how some women behave.

 

[Philippa]

I think the fact that the frenemy told her that I 'harassed' her, when from my point of view, I was questioning her motives for what she was saying to me in the initial reply from the day we had that fight online, is what pisses me off the most. I've now lost a potential friend because that person was jealous of me being friends with her friend, and because she made me out to be some kind of revolting person who "harassed" her. I didn't harass her...I responded to her statement that I was taking her friend for granted and that I was focussing too much on the situation I had called her out on, that she didn't want to look at.

She may have FELT harassed by that and how I took my time and expressed myself in lots of words...but that doesn't mean I WAS harassing her. She is extremely sensitive and you can't say anything to her without her taking it as a personal slight or criticism.

It feels like a bit of a smear campaign on a smaller scale! The woman I spoke to yesterday thinks for herself, and we spoke about it after it happened and she could see from both sides of the fence, but this other woman really made it look like i was being harassing and mean.

I guess it's all for the best, I just hate people who do that.

 

[scout86]

I like to say that there are a lot of crazy people in the world. SOME of them actually have an official diagnosis. Some of them don't. I'm not sure which category she's in, but she definitely sounds like someone you'd want to stay way, far away from!