Relationship Not A Laughing Matter?

[Deleted member 28812]

So I decided to split my thread about flakiness, where I said "BTW I noticed what @SGT Crim1 said. There is sort of an emotional distance between us and he cracks jokes instead of discussing things :(
He can't take anything serious ever.
There is nothing on this world that is not a laughing matter to him. At least that is what he pretends."

@SimplySimon answered "Anyway, sounds like your guy has a lot of passive-aggression going on to me, and maybe this is part of it? The joke cracking, the accusations, the projecting, the insistence that you maintain your standards while simultaneously berating you when you stick to your guns... To me, that sounds like passive-aggression."

and @moonbeam wrote "The joking sounds like a defenseman mechanism. I know I make jokes to deflect attention. If I laugh it off then people won't realise how seriously hurt or stupid or embarrassed or ashamed I feel. All they see is the laughter and the not taking stuff seriously. Though that happens less often and is more in social situations with others".

I do like the fact he has humour :) He cheers up the mood with a joke and a smile. I do enjoy joking with him but I hate the fact that nothing is serious for him. Nothing!
*sniff* So difficult to make him discuss serious stuff. He likes to joke about his therapist. He has a "bad" attitude which comes across like "the whole world is just a laughing matter for me and nobody can teach me anything ever and I don't even waste my time taking anything serious". This can drive me crazy.

 

[moonbeam]

That's what he says but that might not be what he FEELS.

I joke about my T sometimes. I call her my crazy person head doctor or joke that I'm a basket case or my elevator doesn't go the top. Its horrible. And I hate that. Its because I feel judged or ashamed that I have to have my T in the first place. Which I can logically say is stupid and something I shouldn't be ashamed of. I know if it was someone else on the forum I would say to cut themselves a break. I don't think anyone here should be ashamed of having a T. Its actually a really good sign to be reaching out for support. But for me its different, I can see that its stupid and wrong but that doesn't stop the emotion from being there, hence the jokes.

I have no advice on how to get him to talk more seriously except maybe to say "I know you like to keep things lighthearted and joke a lot, and I love that about you, but I would really like to have a serious discussion about x, its very important to me and I would appreciate your serious input." Or something like that.

 

[scout86]

I use humor like @moonbeam does. Although I can see "passive aggressive" in a lot of the behavior @Simply Simon referenced, I'm confused about how it applies to "humor". I'm not at all saying it doesn't or can't, just that I don't get it at the moment.

When you said he "never takes anything seriously" you were echoing the words of my ex-husband. He used to tell me that I never laughed at the right stuff. Always laughed at things that weren't funny and never laughed at stuff that was funny. :( That was a different situation (I think). He was a narcissist. He wanted complete control so HE got to decide what was funny and what wasn't. My brand of humor probably didn't laugh.

There are a lot of reasons for using humor as a defense. A couple of my favorite combat vets had very weird, dark senses of humor. I can too....... If you can laugh about it, it's not as "real". It removes some of the power of the perceived threat. There's an American expression about "whistling in the graveyard". You whistle a silly tune as you walk through a scary place to help defuse the fear. You make things a joke for the same reason. Moombeam explained this really well.

The 2 of you are in a relationship and sometimes have to discuss serious subjects. I can see where you really need to reach some kind of compromise on this. I don't remember if you've said, is couples therapy an option for you? Sometimes having an outside person involved can help work things out. In this case, it would help if that person also understood PTSD.

 

[Recovery4Me]

I was wondering what the end result was, that you had hoped to accomplish by this thread?

Had the person & member not been named specifically, then to understand a choice of communication style - impressive thought.

 

[Kintsugi]

In the interest of preserving the core issues in Lemontree's previous thread surrounding this thread's humor topic, I've moved my response to @scout86 here. As a note, I'd like to say I typically stay away from supporter forums out of a sense of reverence or deferential respect, so kick me out anytime. :D

Passive-aggressive humor, in my experience, usually comes out in three ways, and they are all good friends that tend to stick together in a sticky passive-aggressive muck: sarcasm, minimization, and hyperbole.

Sarcasm

Concerned Person (CP): You didn't do X today. Are you feeling okay today?
Recipient (R): Well, I'm so glad all of my activities are being carefully noted and monitored. Should we call the NSA?

The CP is expressing genuine interest in the R's state of wellness here, but instead of getting a direct response, the CP is met by a sarcastic response questioning the gravity/validity of their concern. In this case, sarcasm is going hand-in-hand with hyperbole to humorous effect (i.e. wondering if the National Security Administration should get involved). I find that sarcasm and hyperbole love one another, and it's not that sarcasm can't be funny, healthy, or called-for, but in this case, it is being used as avoidance in a relationship attempting to address a serious matter (the health of the R).

Minimization

CP: I am sad that you didn't feel well enough to attend our daughter's graduation. She had a lot of fun! I took pictures for you.
R: Kids have achievements for everything nowadays. I guess I didn't realize graduating from kindergarten was a cap and gown event these days. What, did she get a diploma, too? Kindergarten summa cum laude? Guess I missed a biggie.

I wrote this specifically as an example, but I still find it funny. It is funny to me. But the issue is not how big a deal kindgarten is, at least not to me. I think the issue here is that the CP is expressing a genuine emotion, and the R is attempting to stamp out the existence of that emotion by minimizing the event. Again, hyperbole is invoked in a sarcastic manner to achieve minimization of the genuine emotion being set forth. Over time, this is damaging, because it is a form of invalidation. "Oh, you were sad? Well, boo hoo, amiright?"

A glass of hyperbole, neat, please:

CP: Didn't you say you were going to the store today? We're out of milk.
R: Oh, oh my god. I guess it--it slipped my mind! Holy cow, call the cavalry! The milk has run dry! It's nearly 3pm and I haven't gone to the store yet! This is a travesty!

Okay, so here, the CP is asking a sincere question followed by a note that is relevant to that question, like, hey, if you're going to the store, don't forget the milk. But because of the phrasing ("Didn't you say..."), sometimes the R's defense system will light up ("Yeah I said that, and I still will! Yeesh, patience is a virtue"). The CP wasn't at fault, they just maybe tripped a landmine they didn't know was there, and that isn't the CP's fault at all. The R then defensively responds hyperbolically, admitting fault (when it is unnecessary; the CP isn't blaming them for not going to the store yet, but that is what the R is hearing), "Oh, oh my god..." and layering it with hyperbole to ridicule the CP's statement about milk, making it clear that there is still time to go, even though the CP never said there wasn't still time to go out and get milk.

Some responses 'the R' might've tried out instead of using humor:

"I'm feeling fine today, thanks for asking. Sorry I forgot X; I'll get it in the morning if I still feel well."

"Yeah, I'm sorry I couldn't go, too. I'm glad you took pictures. I bet it was cute."

"Oh, yeah, I am going to the store in a bit. I'll make sure I get milk for sure."

You might notice a trend in these alternate responses. They all do three things.

• Respond directly to the overt content of the CP rather than poking fun at what the R believes is the intended message
• Take accountability without becoming defensive or apologizing (i.e. accept agency without "taking the blame")
• Give a genuine answer unobstructed by feelings of defensiveness and/or guilt

All of these traits contribute to a potent effect: validation of the CP.

Does that make sense?

I use humor all the time, sometimes in these potentially damaging ways (although subtler... probably?). Humor can be employed as a coping mechanism in a healthy way. However, when invalidation of a CP rears its head, it's time to cut the wisecracks and communicate more openly, giving credence to the CP without feeling defensive and therefore relying on humor to diffuse the situation. "The situation" probably isn't as big a deal as the R is making it out to be, but defensiveness can make fools of us all now and again. Identifying when defensiveness is kicking your humor into gear is a helpful way to be mindful of when you might be unintentionally invalidating the CPs in your life.

This could be an excellent Q&A article for the newsletter, @scout86 , so if you submit your question to the newsletter, I would be happy to give a fuller, more polished response about this issue, because it is close to my extremely defensive heart. :giggle:

 

[moonbeam]

I was wondering what the end result was, that you had hoped to accomplish by this thread?

I think the purpose was discuss the "humour issue" separate to the thread flakiness. As it isn't necessarily a flaky trait as I would consider it. Flakiness is saying you are going to do something and then not. A bunch of times.

The not appearing to take things seriously isn't necessarily a flaky trait. It can be a defended mechanism or any number of things. I think she just wanted to have the tangent conversation (this topic) somewhere else so it didn't conflict with the other topic. If that makes sense?

 

[Kintsugi]

@moonbeam & @Recovery4Me Protecting the integrity of thread topics is a beautiful thing indeed! :tup:

 

[Friday]

I've only found 2 things in life that can't be made funny; the death of a child, & someone else's pain. Everything else is fair game.

((Although while I won't find other people's pain funny, haven't ever at least, I often go to lengths to make them find it funny. Especially kids. Skinned knee? Oh no! We're going to have to amputate! ... And get them wiggling and giggling and forgetting and everything better in smiles.))

For me it's often a choice of laugh or cry.

I also have a nuclear temper. You don't want to see me angry, ever. Although most people don't notice it when I am. I go all suddenly very calm and relaxed. It's cold anger, and it's f*cking dangerous. Hot anger I have a helluva long fuse on. Long time spent learning to leash it, and I've got a good grip most of the time.

Humor is one of the ways I do that. If I can find the funny? And fast? I can head off the rage at the pass. Most people who know me think I'm incredibly easy going, and have the patience of a saint. I'm not, and I don't. And if I've lost my sense of humor, which happens from time to time, I live in pure rage. Hot and cold rage and not even I want to be around me. Humor keeps those coals banked. Keeps my wits around me. Let's me make choices.

The Beast doesn't have a sense of humor. At least not one anyone wants to see. I do. So if I'm making light, joking, finding the funny? Not making hard things harder? That's the me you want to be around. My serious side is brutal, remorseless, and not one anyone wants to bring out to play. I certainly avoid it as much as possible. It's not DID, it's choices. When I'm choosing not to be angry? I'm choosing to find the funny. In whatever shape it may take.

As always, this is just me. Not saying why others do anything. Just why I do.

 

[Tinyflame]

I too find humour can be an alternative to rage, reacting, or despair. It may not always change the feelings (especially despair in my heart more than anger), but it does change the subject, & protect me also from other people's feelings or reactions. (I think humour can be neutral or self-deprecating, I'm not talking about nasty sarcasm or passive aggressiveness designed to hurt another here).

I agree important topics need to be addressed with enough certainty both people are present & on-board during the discussion. Sometimes though even during such conversations or realities interjecting humour is the only way life can be bearable. I've done it nearly losing life or limb or possessions, sometimes after sometimes during.

I don't take offence if someone interjects humour in a serious discussion, there are times I welcome it if it's not intended to invalidate.

But, I think it becomes natural (with ptsd or otherwise) to look to other's behaviour as needing to change, when really sometimes if I focused only on my own I have more than enough to change. In doing so it can enable me to see things differently, & therefore react or appraise in subtly different ways. And that enables others to respond differently to me.

 

[scout86]

Thanks @Simply Simon ! (I can definitely submit the question. I'm not sure how to do it yet....)

This is really interesting. (I'm not being sarcastic.) If someone had said this to me,

Concerned Person (CP): You didn't do X today. Are you feeling okay today?

I'd have "heard" You didn't do X today! What's your EXCUSE??? :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
Interesting to consider that that might be an innocent question. Now I'm wondering how often I "hear" that sort of thing "wrong", I hear it the way I do because I grew up around someone who was (and is) very passive aggressive, I think, and I think I was interpreting things accurately then. But i wonder how often I get it wrong now.

I think I DO use minimization and hyperbole, but I direct it at myself, not other people. So, when I tell the story about totaling my truck that time, I try to make it funny, and minimize the "you could get killed!" aspect, but the humor is at my own expense, no one else's. Sarcasm seems mean and minimizing someone seems mean too. (Hence the "aggressive"!)

I wonder, though, how often communication gets messed up because someone hears something one way, when it was intended another. And then you have the people who will ALWAYS tell you "You didn't take that the way I meant it!"

 

[Sighs]

@Simply Simon - Please don't feel you need to stay off supporter's threads! Most of us are desperate for some insight from sufferers that might help us understand our own sufferer a little better.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

Most people who know me think I'm incredibly easy going, and have the patience of a saint. I'm not, and I don't. And if I've lost my sense of humour, which happens from time to time, I live in pure rage. Hot and cold rage and not even I want to be around me. Humour keeps those coals banked. Keeps my wits around me. Let's me make choices.

That's interesting... I would have said the same thing about my husband before I got to know him better. He is so patient and always laughing and to be fair: I like this a lot :)

I do know he has fears because he told me of some of those fears but when you see how he acts you wouldn't say he acts afraid. Only once. He does avoid things and when he is afraid the hair on his arms stand on pit. I can tell, but he does not do the things people you are afraid are supposed to do (like cry, hide behind things, whatever)... and I never saw him hot angry so far.