Hi
@shimmerz..if i had to write a Human Behavioural 101 manual, part of it might look something like this (but hopefully much shorter :oops:).
"Sweetheart I have no f*cking idea what you are talking about."
I too would deem this to be a normal male response &
very honest, even though probably a bit immature or not very evolved, depending on his age. In general terms, I find men don't tend think much about the why's of what they do or who they are, etc. It's just not really in their make up. They are amazingly uncomplicated creatures, which I both love & admire greatly about them.
I hope this helps as it really did for me - I was watching a program that was following numerous people from birth right up to, I think they may be in their 50's now. The program I was watching was 'At age 7' & amongst other interesting things that were occurring, the thing that stood out for me was the gender differences that were already becoming apparent.
They split the kids up into 2 groups - male & female & put in a room a big castle play set with toys of horses, knights & the like. They let the boys in first & were given 10 minutes to play with the toys. Which they did. From the moment they entered the room, they went straight to the toys, grabbed one & were into it. Bashing their toy around & into others, they were having a ball. Next they let the girls in, who also went straight to the toys & proceeded to figure out who was going to be what & how it was going to take place, followed by many 'no, I want to be the princess' 's & so on. And they continued to 'figure it all out' until the 10 minutes were up & the kids were asked to leave the room, which was met with the protest of 'but we haven't even got to play with them yet'. I found this to be very telling indeed & made a lot of sense of many things I had struggled with in my own marriage (watch just about any couple try and erect a tent together :rolleyes:).
Men are just simply amazing at getting the job done. They just do & deal with whatever comes along the way. And that certainly doesn't necesarrily mean that they have to figure it out in order to do so. ;)
Which reminds me of the 'phone incident' that I misread with great naivety as I recall. I dropped him off after dinner the first 'night' we went out. Both phones on the dash. Both phones were very different. He picked up my phone, forcing me to go back after a half hour drive. Giggled about the mistake and insisted forcefully that I stay because it was so late. I let it go because I didn't actually 'get' what he was doing. I thought it was an honest mistake.
That kind of deception?
I would be more inclined to think that this guy is a 'doosh bag' who probably just wanted to get laid, but not necessarily a 'narc' but definitely very immature - loser.
In my experience, guys lie, withhold & manoeuvre themselves. But rarely is it to do harm. Why it can seem so difficult for a bloke to just say 'I would like to see you again' or 'I just need some time with my mates', never ceases to amaze me??
I still struggle with the whole good people do bad things & bad people do good things & try to tone down the hair trigger 'bullshit-ometer' that PTSD tends to give.
These days my recovery seems more to be about dealing with problems that are less past related & more present related. I would also say that my recovery has been as much, if not more, about learning what is 'normal' as it has been about dealing with symptoms & healing.
But as far as narcissists go or those with very high or unhealthy levels or narcissism go, I don't use a litmus test on them, but rather use them as a litmus test for where I am at.
I have to say that I actually don't mind the company of people with healthy levels of narcissism. I find them very easy to be around. They have their own opinions & aren't easily swayed by gossip & they're not easily offended & they are also more interested in doing than talking about it - just to name a few. And yeh, they also tend to be pretty self absorbed, have inflated views of themselves & what they can do & definitely can be annoying, but ya take the good with the bad - I would also certainly be turning to someone else for comfort if I was in need of some sympathy - direction yes, but sympathy not so much. ;)
I seem to have had a lot of experience with 'narcs' & where I draw the line with narcissism is in a person's nature, which I find always does & will shine through in the end. Time is a revealer of all truths I believe. And I'm learning more & more to allow people to tell me who they are & to be believe them when they do.
The opportunity for 'narc's' to reveal themselves for me is when that inevitable time comes when I have to say no to something they want & that they will need to seek that help out from someone else or come up with an alternate solution that may not be as pleasing. Good natured people may get upset, be disappointed or may even carry on about it, depending on how much they were relying on it or me, but
will come to the party in the end & whilst they may not like it, they will still choose to be understanding anyway. I find good natured people tend to be forgiving people.
A true 'narc' on the other hand will see it, not just that you didn't give them what they wanted, but rather that you are intentionally & actively going out & stopping or preventing them from getting what they want & you will become the focal point for their wrath & become subjected to their relentless attempts to control, intimidate & even harm or cause suffering for you - all of which pleases them & gives them actual joy. And apparently it's not about self esteem & results have shown that they tend to rate quite high on the self esteem scale. They do however fear being revealed but not for the same reasons you or I probably would. They know that behaving in a certain way enables them to use people as their pawns & if people were aware that they behaved to the contrary, then they would lose their position to be able to do this. This also makes them at their worst when at risk of being revealed. And they are incredible at doing the ground work when infiltrating a circle, making sure that all (including you) are fully convinced on how great they are & which normally results in, should the need arise, that people will believe them over you - & unfortunately they do & ultimaely leave you feeling quite insane & completely questioning that maybe it is you & that it's all your fault. They are also highly intelligent, charismatic & likable people & they know exactly what they are doing.
On the other hand, I have found with those of the 'high level of narcissism' kind, tend to drop you like a hot spud & talk badly about you behind your back. At worst make attempts to undermine you or maybe even engineer events to 'put you back in your place' or punish you in some way- pretty nasty & makes for horrible people but not the evil I believe that can come from a true 'narc'.
I've noticed that you
can avoid these people or get out unscathed (if early enough). And I know how frightening it is to think that you could get mixed up with another one. And that it can be this fear that causes the need to know everything about them, because maybe then you can keep yourself safe. But the problem with 'narcs' is that part of the hook that keeps you around much longer than you should, is the desperate need (& the doubts that go along with it) to figure out whether it actually is really you or it is really them - 'I just need to know'.
My motto is 'where there's doubt, there is none' - the very presence of doubt itself confirms, to me, that you do already know. But what it is you know may not be that obvious. If it's a niggle i'll let things unfold & deal with it as it arises, when something doesn't seem right i'll weigh it up whether it's worth the challenges ahead to find out if it is something I can live with or not (humans are after all incredibly flawed beings but not necessarily dangerous), but when it comes to the 'there is something seriously wrong here' - I have found that I ignore at my own peril.
I find the 'you get what you focus on' to be incredibly true. After buying a new 'whatever', it seems like everyone has one now or when pregnant it seems like there are pregnant women everywhere, seriously everywhere you look. Likewise with anything you immerse yourself into, you will start to see it everywhere you look, as with narcissism, you can see it in everyone you meet. And rightfully so - narcissism is a basic human need for a healthy life, without it we wouldn't look after ourselves or our responsibilities at all. I don't think it is that much different with anything else either.
For me, once I seemed to stop trying to figure everyone out or what they might be up to or what angle they might be coming from & I actively chose & decided on the behaviours that would & would not be acceptable to me & around me..& lived accordingly..i have found these situations not to be too difficult. I have also found that you really do teach people how to treat you & if
you don't decide on it, others will take it upon themselves & decide for you.
As far as a litmus tests go for people, mine would be that if anyone, & i truly mean anyone regardless of background or achievements, that consistently cause me to feel less about myself in anyway after an interaction with them, I know I need to keep them at a distance. And i'm not talking about those who challenge me to question my thoughts or what i'm doing. I'm talking about feeling unhappy with who I am & where I’m at & I seem to be more aware of my short comings than usual & can even feel the need to rehash the events & everything I said to make sure that I didn’t say or do anything that I shouldn’t have or to embarrass myself (I don't know if anyone else feels like this with certain people). Regardless, i will remain friendly but I will not allow a friendship to start. I won't do business with them either - even if they have a better product or deal. I'm not interested in getting to know them (or their personal version of dysfunction) better & it doesn't matter to me how highly regarded they are by anyone else, all I do know is that one way or another it ends in tears for me & I have learnt to just not go there in the first place.
If I had any advice, it would be this. Rather than trying to decipher what other people’s behaviours mean, decide on how you want to be treated & which behaviours are unacceptable to you & just don’t settle for anything less & be firm on it. You're worth it. Bad behaviour is just that, bad behaviour & people do it for all kinds of reasons. What’s driving it is not what is important, what is important is whether you deem it to be acceptable or not for you. And never defend yourself. I can’t remember who said it, but I remember what they said, “Never defend yourself – your enemies won’t believe you & your friends don’t need to hear it.” I have found this to be very true indeed.
Thanks for the opportunity to share :tup:
Cheers :)
