Anyone hate the sound of their own voice (figuratively speaking)?

[Abstract]

It used to stop me saying anything. Now I try to continue regardless but there is always a backlash of shame and self degradation. No matter what I say or do.

My capacity for self aggression seems endless. Internal sarcasm, analytical dissection and tearing apart of content and intent and a feeling that I have no right to have an opinion or a voice are always there.

At least it is much quieter than it used to be, on the whole. And at least I continue blabbering along despite it these days. Good thing?

I do all the things I should such as fighting the internal critic of course.

I also have a constant overwhelming feeling that others feel the same way about me. Some I can see is probably projection, others I am not so sure. I often wish people would just tell me straight the worst things that they think about me as as painful as that would be I would prefer it. I wish I could more often believe people don't have a hidden agenda. I apologise if that is offensive.

 

[DMerish]

Is this little annoying demon always around, taunting you? Or did you say something to someone recently and you're not sure how they took it? And now you're questioning yourself? Or did you state an opinion recently and someone else stated something that was different than yours?

Just trying to get a "grip" on this . . .

 

[Abstract]

Thanks Drew.

It isn't anything recent or triggered by something specific although things trigger it all the time. In the last five or so years it at least doesn't silence me all the time any more. I just try to tune it out and continue and deal with the backlash as it happens.

I think it has always been with me from what I can recall. There was a time when the only way I can describe it is that I did not have awareness of it. It was only in my late 20's that the first buds of realisation started. That seems to be a theme for me as I did not have "awareness" of dissociation or flashbacks until my forties either. Sorry if that sounds strange. It is the best I can express it. I am in my mid 40's now and am pretty self aware.

My levels of internal toxic shame are strong and also seem to wax and wan with being triggered.

 

[maddog]

Abstract, I think perhaps you nailed it with your last sentence, that being the fact that your internal toxic shame is strong. Toxic shame, in my sadly rich and diverse experience, has many voices and shapes and forms, some of which are internal self talk, some of which are external and critical of behaviour and attitude and existence, but all of which reflect the core of toxic shame and an inability to believe that anything about the self is acceptable, either to the self, or to anyone else.

You do, quite obviously, have incredible insight into yourself, and I see that here on the forum all the time. I do also know that insight is only half the battle, and that doing something about it is a thousand times harder than knowing and understanding.

I think the trick with projection, which I think is a fair chunk of your insecurities with others' reactions to you, is to flip it on its head and try instead to focus on the feedback and reactions that you're actually receiving from others, rather than the ones you're assigning to them. I know that sounds ridiculously obvious, and something that I'm sure you try to do anyway, but I know that for me, if I sometimes stop and consciously ask myself to focus in on what other people are saying and how they are beahing in relation to me, it takes my attention away from the ruminating and projection that often take up more of my brainpower than Iam even aware of.

There is a silver lining to the fact that many people around us in the world have fairly limited insight, self awareness and emotional regulation skills (this being my personal and cynical view of humanity of course!) And that silver lining is that a lot of people will behave in ways that obviously reflect how they feel towards others, and so if the majority of feedback you're getting is positive and validating, such as what you receive here on the forum, then there's a pretty good likelihood that those reactions are a true reflection of how you're viewed.

Obviously it's important to be pragmatic and discerning in identifying safe and healthy people, and that's a whole other issue I know, but I know that when I am least able to trust or believe in myself internally, the best I can do is to try to look outside of myself to other people and to try to hang on, at least a little bit, to what they are feeding back to me.

I have a horrible feeling that I've either missed the point or been insensitive in my response, and if so Iam very sorry. But just to prove my point, for what little it may be worth, if I couldn't "stand the sound of your voice..." either literally or figuratively, I simply wouldn't have bothered responding to your thread, so let that be at least a little positive feedback for you!

Maddog

 

[Hashi]

I would add to what maddog has said and say that I think in general people are much more focussed on themselves than on other people. They usually aren't that bothered by what we say, because it doesn't have the same importance to them as it does to us.

In cases where it might be important to other people, for example when they're opening up on the forum, I think someone having this concern about what they say means they're probably much more careful and dipomatic than someone who doesn't have this sort of shame.

Abstract, I don't know if this is the reason why, but I think you're very sensitive in what you post here on the forum. I also think the forum is a place where people would usually tell you if they were bothered by your comments.

It does sound likely to be your perception/projection rather than anything that other people experience when you say things. Although for me it manifests a bit differently, I sympathise with the harsh internal criticism and self aggression.. One way I experience this is that I think my appearance is completely unacceptable and I shouldn't subject other people to having to look at me. I feel I don't have a right to even be present.

In my case, I can strongly relate feeling I should be invisible to my current shame and general self-hatred. With more difficulty, I can see a direct connection to trauma too. Both being treated as if I was invisible/not there during childhood, and feeling I'd become nothing to the extent that I believed I was literally invisible immediately following the trauma when I was 20.

For me, there are such obvious connections to trauma it's hard to explain why it's difficult to identify that with my feelings now. It's such a tangle, and the undoing of each knot so painful that I'm not going to try to unravel that here. I just wanted to say that in my case I think it's more than fighting an internal critic, and the healing of this has to involve some healing of past trauma too. In the meantime, seeing it from that perspective can, hopefully, help me be more compassionate towards myself when someone's talking to me and all I can imagine is how disgusting and unacceptable they must think I am.

 

[ashdawn8287]

With cbx9 I had him write all those horrible thoughts down. Then write positive ones. He said the negative thoughts sounded exhausting when he read them over again. I said now look at the positive statements I bet they are shorter, more controlled, less exhausting. It opened his eyes to the power of words.

For every bad thought think 5 good ones. Like I say on this site, repeating something turns into a habit, it takes about 30 days to form a habit with repetition. A habit turns into a lifestyle.

 

[DMerish]

Dear, dear Abstract -

You have been for me one of the most insightful, compassionate, uplifting and supportive people to respond to my posts. So when I read your post at the top of this thread I almost couldn’t believe what I was hearing! Thus, my inquiry . . .

I believe this phenomenon, if you will, is one of the byproducts of PTSD. One of the main things about my PTSD is that my former self (up until my late 20’s) used to process things as a whole (instinctually?). After “waking up” to my trauma, my self stopped processing as a whole and parts became fragmented. Therefore, sometimes my perceptions about myself and the world around me come in piece-like, and then I mentally question how and where the parts fit together:

“Is it me or is it them? Did I say something that was offensive, or was what I said misinterpreted? Did I say that the right way? Gosh, was it even my right to have an opinion on that subject? Were they being honest when they said that? Holy crap—I’m doing it again. I better shut up inwardly and outwardly because I’m beginning to feel anxious and jittery and they’re going to see it, and it will make them uncomfortable, and that will make me uncomfortable, and then we won’t have a relationship. I think I’ll leave now. Thanks for the company but I can’t stand it. If you could see how inside me right now you'd agree with my critical self-thoughts and you wouldn’t want to be around me either."

Then I'll go home and hash over the event and my thoughts until I’m exhausted.

I have found that one of my problems is thinking and talking about my problems, both inwardly and with others. If I could stop that nasty habit and focus on and talk about my joys, my life and the lives around me would be much more pleasant. That is not to say I won’t talk about my problems here, nor do I want you or others to stop. I have just found that I've come to the point where it's not useful for me to talk about my problems with many family members and friends (they just don’t get it), and I'm at the point where I need to stop judging myself. Period. I have also found that a lot of people “out there” really aren’t interested in my advice or opinions (even when they say they are). So I don’t offer, unless it pertains to a matter of great importance to me. Then I’ll try to lead the person(s) into seeing things my way rather than telling them my opinion directly.

I can’t add much to what has already been said. I think Maddog, in particular, covered the whole business and without fragments whatsoever, in my opinion. Maddog’s reply (not surprisingly) even included direct insight into his/her own inner critic in the first sentence of their last paragraph, i.e. extending an apology if perchance they may have offended.

Here’s a suggestion: Sometime when you’re quiet (meditative) take that little self-critical demon and hold it in your heart and give it all the love and care that you can muster. Know that that little demon is nothing more than a small part of yourself that wants and needs love like all the rest of you, and deserves it. If it wasn’t a part of you, your wisdom would not be so eloquently delivered to the rest of us. If it wasn't a part of you, along with all the rest of the parts of you, you would not be the beautiful person you are.

And keep blabbering, dear Abstract!

Please see the attachment. :hug:

 

[Abstract]

Thank you everyone. I do very much appreciate your words. I keep coming here and then don't post.

Anyone want to do a brain swap?! ;)

 

[Abstract]

MD,

You always have helpful things to say, are very intuitive about knowing where the tricky territory is and you are never insensitive.

I think a lot of this is about toxic shame. It is astounding how many forms it can take and how many ways I seem to express it. I have to say I get fed up with it sometimes. It's not as if I haven't worked on this. I am not one to let myself look back and tend just try to take one step at a time but every now and then with this stuff I feel tired of constantly battling with it.

That then of course leads to self hate for having self hate which then perpetuates the whole cycle. Helpful! Then I concentrate back on radical acceptance and that helps a bit. Thank God for radical acceptance.

It's a funny thing with insight. Not that long ago I started almost resenting it. It almost feel like adding insult to injury to be so aware of what one is doing wrong or what is broken. But more recently I have come to my senses again. I do think awareness and understanding is half of the battle and am starting to see what it can look like when there isn't any. The rest of it, the other half, is so hard to change.

I suspect I should be doing similar work to the work you are doing but the idea scares the living life out of me. Not as a concept at all. I see great benefit in it as a concept. It just scares me on a personal level.

try instead to focus on the feedback and reactions that you're actually receiving

Thank you for this reminder and I am going to make a big effort to try to do this more again.
I find this so hard. I hope I don't offend anyone as this isn't personal and is entirely about me but I struggle to let anything positive in or trust in it. I am better than I used to be which is good. It is easier when I know someone enough to have more belief in their honesty and good intentions too. Part of this almost feels like noone can possibly be telling the truth unless they are criticising or undermining me. I hate to say it but there is almost a sense of relief when that happens, in strange way.

I have realised there is still something in me that hooks into that. I don't know if it is familiarity or if it is the pattern of needing to try to make it better, be better. It's very painful to realise. Maybe its just about something on the outside matching what happens on the inside of me.

that silver lining is that a lot of people will behave in ways that obviously reflect how they feel towards others,

That is actually a very good point! I hadn't thought of that. Thank you.

 

[Hashi]

It's a funny thing with insight. Not that long ago I started almost resenting it. It almost feel like adding insult to injury to be so aware of what one is doing wrong or what is broken.

This can be very true. I think insight shouldn't be allowed without self-compassion. Unfortunately, they often seem to be sold separately.

 

[Abstract]

Hi Hashi,

Thanks for your input! I don't want to give the wrong idea as in many ways I have done a lot of work on this stuff. In many parts of my life I truly don't care what others think that much. Such as work for example. I am very aware that others are more concerned about themselves too generally.

I guess I own it all mostly but that does not necessarily stop me from hating and judging myself and when it comes to discussions about these deeply personal things (trauma and mental health) I do have paranoia. Actually maybe it is when I am emotionally vulnerable. I don't often allow myself to be emotionally vulnerable and when I do this stuff sets in with a vengeance. The self hatred is pretty much always there though in some form. And I have that awful analytical judgment of myself in broader, general way. That internal voice that says "blah blah blah" derogatorily.

I am generally quite sensitive to others and when I answer others I don't focus or even think if they dislike me or not or any of that. I go into what I think of as my "them" mode. When I am my least functional I tend to be paranoid about inadvertently harming someone with my words. Not necessarily because I have done something "wrong" but because it hits on something difficult for them. That used to feel like one of the worst possible things but I am more balanced these days. I hope that all doesn't sound too mother theresa ish! :cautious: I am not proud of it. I tend to think of all of these things as chance patterns that we develop in response to environment and biology. Believe me I have dissected that too. I dissect everything.

In other words if I answer someone and check if something affected them badly I am not doing it because I fear being hated. If I think something will be helpful but that it will mean I am disliked I will still say it.

I also think the forum is a place where people would usually tell you

That is probably true! Thanks for the reminder. Actually it's one of the reasons I find it easier to be on here. I have been on a forum where everything was extremely careful and gentle and in some ways that was wonderful but I found it started exaggerating my tendencies even more so not helpful. It was very hard to believe that what people said was what they meant.

One way I experience this is that I think my appearance is completely unacceptable and I shouldn't subject other people to having to look at me. I feel I don't have a right to even be present.

Thanks for sharing. I am sorry you have the internal aggression and criticism too. Oh boy, have I done the appearance thing! I have mostly dealt with this stuff but I used to actually feel like people were going to stone me if I went outside! :rolleyes: I felt like a freak at a freak show or something foetid that got caught under someone's shoe. Taking up even an inch of space in the world felt like more than I had a right to. I used to have therapy in the dark at one point so that I wouldn't feel so visually exposed. And to show how illogical these things are when I was young I actually did the briefest ever bout of modelling. At the same time as that I felt like the most foul looking thing alive.

With more difficulty, I can see a direct connection to trauma too. ... For me, there are such obvious connections to trauma it's hard to explain why it's difficult to identify that with my feelings now. It's such a tangle, and the undoing of each knot so painful that I'm not going to try to unravel that here.

Thank you for bringing this up. I relate very much and this is what I believe too. Any work I have already done on anything related to this has brought a lot of that work up automatically.

I truly think that is one of the reasons things such as CBT had such a limited affect. Just taking the body stuff as an example - all the CBT over all those years did almost nothing compared to the work I did on trauma related stuff and feelings. That and behaviourally challenging the feelings and doing things anyway.

It does absolutely wax and wan with other stuff coming up and I realised after I posted that some mother stuff had just come up and that is probably partly what this is about.

Part of this I really think is some sort of introject. The words and what is expressed is so close to what has have been said to me before that it must be.

Hopefully we will all manage to banish the ridiculous critic in time. It's so easy to see how wrong it is for others isn't it?

 

[Abstract]

Hi Dawn,

I have certainly done affirmations and done loads of CBT over the years. They definitely have a role. Unfortunately with this stuff fairly limited results. And actually CBT backfired for the longest time for me and fed the toxic shame. On top of everything else my thoughts were "wrong". For my level of shame that just pushed me over the edge. I have felt I needed therapy to get over some of therapy. It has been the deeper work that I have done that has made much more of an impact. That and DBT with radical acceptance being key. A million times more effective than the rest for me. I do continue with the affirmations etc though.

I am glad these things seem to have helped you on a personal level though.