Archetypes In Therapy - Jung - And Spirituality.

[Abstract]

Well I dug out my enormous edition of Jungs Archetypes and Collective Unconscious. And I have looked at the cover... :p

Ah, religion.

Yes religion. I too have respect for it and on occasion I can feel regret that I don't have it. Mostly I am averse enough that I don't feel regret either. But I think its fine and good and for more than just the way it conceptualises things. I am happy for people if they believe in a particular religion and feel they belong to it.

negative effects on thinking and behaviour.

Religion has been very misused over the years and by so many. I tend to blame people and not the religion in general as I don't think the way they are abused reflects their intended values. I hate how they are institutionalised though.

Higher power

Sadly even this does not do it for me. Its one of the things I could not get past with 12 steps. Higher power. I get stuck there. I can't see the earth as an organism and as mother earth as that is just another God in my mind. The same with the concept of the higher power being within one. I am just a person.

The first time I have seen anything that has managed to get close to something I could work with would be related to what Amcen said. Consciousness or maybe I would prefer enlightenment.

Its strange as I am very intuitive and people who are are generally thought to be spiritual.

I view things more as energetic forces shaping patterns and events, but that probably means nothing to anyone else.

I feel much more comfortable with that.

same ideas and symbols will emerge independently in different cultures, religions and individuals.

I hope that I can find a way to be able to accept this aspect of it. Maybe it doesn't have to be as literal as I first envisioned it. Maybe a lot of these concepts are more that - concepts. Or maybe they can be as I am sure they are more than that for many.

not sure any amount of telling myself new meanings can get past that

Me too.

rituals helpful as a symbolic way to stay connected to my deeper beliefs

I actually don't have a problem with rituals so much and maybe it is the deeper beliefs that I don't have! :unsure: Thats almost a little embarrassing.

ut that doesn't mean a religious practice, a spiritual practice or a metaphysical practice are the same as each other.

I do think I understand and now that I am thinking about its possible that the part of religion that gets me the most (relating to me not others) is the spirituality rather than the religion. Tricky. And as you say it is all tricky. Difficult to separate the concepts. And I keep going around in circles. Thinking that part of the problem with spirituality is that I think there is always a religious element that soon follows. :O_o:

 

[Abstract]

archetype practitioner

I can see why that helped you and why it also helped you build the awareness and break through the denial and dissociation; which them helped you get the help you needed. It sounds very positive and he sounds like a responsible practitioner.

Unfortunately this isn't something I could do at this point as I am so mistrustful that I would want to see someone properly supervised and trained in trauma (regardless of feeling like it doesn't apply to me!).

It was extremely useful for beginning archetype work

I can understand this.

More later... Thanks again as it is helping me clarify this and learn too.

 

[Hashi]

The first time I have seen anything that has managed to get close to something I could work with would be related to what Amcen said. Consciousness or maybe I would prefer enlightenment.

"Enlightenment" made me think of the alchemical stage of "albedo" or "whitening". My therapist has talked about the alchemical phases but I've found it hard to find a good online article about them. The one below isn't too bad for explaining the way Jung related alchemy to psychology, although I don't think it does justice to the "albedo" stage which I would describe more in terms of enlightenment and think it's odd they don't.
[DLMURL]http://h2g2.com/approved_entry/A676370[/DLMURL]

I hope some of the terminology isn't a problem!

 

[Abstract]

Extremely interesting concepts here Hashi. In general. I think its quite good for me to explore this topic regardless of if it leads to anything or not.

Some new self awareness brewing too.

Putting the Jung edition aside as it seems there are much more accessible information sources available and my concentration levels are those of a geriatric flea.

 

[Mayday]

I am finding this conversation very interesting, though apologies I couldn't muster up the concentration to make it through it all, skim read most of the latter posts but wanted to comment in regards to the spirituality thing

Yes religion. I too have respect for it and on occasion I can feel regret that I don't have it. Mostly I am averse enough that I don't feel regret either.

Am with you here. I grew up raised amongst religion and it wasn't a positive experience for me. I also don't blame the religion as such, but the particular people involved. I sometimes feel it would be nice to have faith, maybe it would be a comfort. But I don't, so that is just that I suppose.

Hashi said: ↑
I view things more as energetic forces shaping patterns and events, but that probably means nothing to anyone else.
I feel much more comfortable with that.

I had a philosophy teacher who once said something that always stuck with me. He said that the word "God" was originally an abbreviation of the word "Good" ie. it was used to represent "the power of good" in terms of what Hashi was saying about energetic forces or energy etc...The idea of a force of good is something that I can logically accept, whereas the whole god/higher power thing just does't work for me. Maybe I am too literal for religion!

 

[Abstract]

Mayday,
Thanks for sharing!! That is actually quite helpful. It breaks down the word for me into something more palatable. And breaks the negative power a bit.

"Good" ie. it was used to represent "the power of good" in terms of what Hashi was saying about energetic forces or energy etc...The idea of a force of good is something that I can logically accept, whereas the whole god/higher power thing just does't work for me. Maybe I am too literal for religion!

And I am beginning to think I am too literal too! Which is actually a surprise as I am actually a scatty intuitive type. And ENFP in Myers Briggs although I need to check if I have changed.

Even with the word "good" I would have to go further as I think it is so important not to be beaten into nothingness by the concept or fear of goodness. I think that happens a bit for those of us who were the "good" child but actually an outsider and unknown to others.

I relate to much that you said.

 

[Mayday]

I am actually a scatty intuitive type

haha...me to actually! I don't know why the literalness kicks in when it comes to certain things but not others?

Even with the word "good"

that is a really important point, the word 'good' can have negative meanings depending on how it has been used. Will mull around on that in my head for a bit and hopefully come back to it later :P

 

[Abstract]

I am glad there is someone who is literal, scatty and intuitive! I think they say extroverted thinking and introverted feeling if you are familiar with the concepts of Myers Briggs so maybe it is not that strange. Its possible that the literalness is all that is keeping me together.... :wideeyed:

 

[Mayday]

I am glad there is someone who is literal, scatty and intuitive!

It's weird, because a lot of the time I can almost tell exactly what someone is thinking regardless of whether I know them well or not, and I can basically finish their sentences or give them the exact word they are looking for...

yet other times I have so much trouble understanding other people because I will take what they said literally...

I wonder if the intuitiveness is to do with building that survival skill as a kid, because being able to use intuition to determine the situation must have been needed. And the scatty-ness is probably my dissociating most of the time.

Maybe the literalness is just how my brain would have been if I hadn't have had to build up my intuitive skills as a kid?

 

[The Albatross]

On the Meyers Briggs, I was an INFJ "The Protector"about 8 years ago but I retested at the 5 year mark and am now an INFP "The Idealist"

 

[Pencil]

INFP "The Idealist"

So am I :)

 

[Hashi]

I wonder if the intuitiveness is to do with building that survival skill as a kid, because being able to use intuition to determine the situation must have been needed.

Caroline Myss did an audiobook called "Healing Trauma" which is focussed on the spiritual aspects of trauma and healing. She does use word spiritual, or mystical, but in a metaphysical sense, not a religious one. (The book is half by a spiritual practioner called James Finlay, and I found his half really offputting and couldn't listen to it. But the Myss half helped me a lot.)

One thing she said that is that when we're traumatised as children, we don't develop survival skills normally. Non-traumatised children learn to read a situation naturally and unconsciously, to be alert to red flags and feelings that something's wrong. Traumatised children don't. This is one reason that retraumatisation occurs as adults, including that we're not always able to recognise abusive behaviour for what it is. Our survival senses have been damaged.

She says the bad news is that if you haven't developed that "normal" survival sense by aged 7, you won't ever develop it fully. The better news is that instead there's a kind of "higher" survival sense that's available to us that we can turn to in its place. This is much more based on intuition. (We also have practical things we can do of course, like create safety rules for ourselves and keep to them - that's equally important.)

Personally, I see it as not only an inner intuition or guidance but also being open to guidance from outside ourselves. I realise not everyone might relate to this idea of outer guidance or be comfortable with it so I'll leave that to one side.

Finding ways to "hear" my inner intuition better has been fundamental to my healing. For me the biggest of these is dream interpretation. I'm now at the point where I'm confident that I know when a dream is telling me something important, and I know whether I've understood it. I trust dream guidance above everything else. For example, it's how I know what to talk about in therapy and when, in order to process things without retraumatising myself. So even if I'm filled with dread at the idea of having to talk, and talking is awful, I know it's the right thing to do. If I had to go by my conscious mind having to work out things like that, I'd be lost.