I'm having a hard time understanding the criteria of PTSD as it pertains to memory with an infant. If an infant experiences pain and terror shortly after birth to a few months old, is it possible for them to develop PTSD from that? I was told you have to be able to form memories in order to meet the criteria of PTSD, but would infants be able to form the type of memory needed to develop PTSD and re-experience the trauma in some way? Also, if it can't be PTSD, can they be traumatized in other ways? Thanks.
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Can Infants Get Ptsd?
- Post starter TK421
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No, but they can develop attachment disorders depending upon the origin of their fears and the consistency of their caregiving. Attachment disorders are the only psychiatric disorders that you can diagnose infants with. Infants can't develop PTSD because PTSD is a disorder of memory-circuit interruption and re-looping, re-triggering, re-experiencing, etc. The mechanisms involved in PTSD are too complicated for an infant brain to even go through. Which is why you can't have PTSD as an adult from events sustained before the age of at least a year old, because until that time, you can't store memories that make any sense.
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anthony
Founder
Only preschool and upwards, for the exact points above based on brain development.
http://
After the age mentioned in link, its then the normal PTSD diagnosis.
http://
After the age mentioned in link, its then the normal PTSD diagnosis.
D
Deleted member 1860
Not arguing the PTSD/infant thing, however...
There is evidence that infants can "remember" in other ways. Not conscious memories that are required for PTSD, rather "body" memories. (The mind may not remember, but the body never forgets.) This was introduced to me during my intensive trauma program a few months ago and while I don't understand all the details of it, it makes sense to me. (I had a traumatic birth and was an extremely fussy baby...conjecture that this was the issue, but my sexual trauma wasn't until years later, and my doctors found nothing else wrong with me).
There is evidence that infants can "remember" in other ways. Not conscious memories that are required for PTSD, rather "body" memories. (The mind may not remember, but the body never forgets.) This was introduced to me during my intensive trauma program a few months ago and while I don't understand all the details of it, it makes sense to me. (I had a traumatic birth and was an extremely fussy baby...conjecture that this was the issue, but my sexual trauma wasn't until years later, and my doctors found nothing else wrong with me).
I think this may have some basis in neurology as if you look at the dynamics of fear and trauma on the mind it reaches the base part of the brain which is the first part to develop, the brain stem. And in infants this is basically all they have to work on. So the stress chemicals that come with fear you know how fear manifests in the body, we store fear in our bodies.
It's why babies can have attachment issues, because they don't get what they need and they become scared and over time that develops into their consciousness but the fear was always there first. Even if a child was mistreated before the age of six months and then given to a nice family for the rest of their life, and doesn't have any memories of being mistreated, they can still have attachment issues because their brain has been exposed to that fear that still lives there.
I think that's why it's possible for people to be stuff like psychopaths and sociopaths or have personality disorders even while having a "decent life", ykwim? There's obviously something wrong with them, but maybe it happened so early and got stored so messed up and they have no memory of it that it's like they were just born like that. I really don't think, aside from psychopathy (which is linked to brain damage - which people can be born with), that people are "born" abusive or f*cked up.
Even with personality disorders and shit, it isn't inevitable that there's some "PD Gene" that causes it. It's messed up by what your brain stores before you can even form cognition. But as for having PTSD, it's impossible. PTSD is a disorder of memory inherently, and infants can't store memories up to a certain age. But keep in mind there are quite a few disorders that look like PTSD from the outside, including attachment disorders.
(Obviously I'm not questioning anyone's diagnosis, but if someone says they have PTSD "From a traumatic birth" - like that is their primary trauma, that's just not possible. You can have issues from it, but not PTSD specifically.) But I definitely agree that there are ways that infants store experiences that affect the outcome of their psychological profile even if they can't actually recall the events that lead up to it.
D
Deleted member 1860
Oh, I didn't mean to imply that a traumatic birth can give someone PTSD, or that I've ever heard of this possibility. Rather, that traumatic events at such a young age can still have an effect even though the memories may not be processed or stored the same way. Sorry if I was unclear!
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Now, the reason why I asked. Do you think it's possible infants can get these attachment disorders from circumcision? There have been tests of their blood cortisol levels before and after procedures that show a significant rise. There have also been tests that show a lower pain tolerance during vaccinations of circumcised boys vs. intact boys. There also must be post-op recovery pain as well from the wound, but I don't know how much pain that would be, or if it would be continual enough to cause an attachment disorder since it takes about a week to heal. I'm sure it's possible it can disrupt breastfeeding and bonding in some too since it's done at such an early age.
The only way I can answer this is with my opinion because I honestly don't know. I googled it but did not come up with anything at all. But in my opinion, circumcision is definitely grounds to be traumatic, definitely. I have always been 100% against it for that reason. (Actually, I can rant about it pretty in depth truly. It's absolutely baseless.) Honestly, if we're applying this to circumcision, I'm not really sure how to look at it only because it is so common.
As a grounds for trauma - the procedure itself is pointless, cruel and agonizing. It does a lot of physical damage, leaves permanent scarring, can actually visibly cause deformities, it reduces sensation, it causes an extreme amount of pain to the infant as infants are typically not sedated for the procedure and this pain can last for weeks depending on the way the infant is circumcised. If any adult were circumcised against their will I would absolutely say that it would be grounds for trauma, absolutely. But this is not really about the validity of circumcision as a trauma but so much whether or not a human infant at such a young age would internalize that trauma enough to be significantly effected by it later than life.
At the same time, I would think that if a person were to be significantly affected mentally by circumcision that they would have had to have been predisposed initially to anxiety or stress - the reason I say this being that circumcision is so extremely prevalent and it does not consistently cause issues (it is, however, linked with many issues.) Even with PTSD, regular traumatic events are usually dealt with in a way that results in a person not developing PTSD. PTSD is not "A person experiences trauma and then inevitably gets PTSD." The same goes for PDs and ADs. Just because you've experienced something traumatic, does not inherently mean you will have a problem. So - what that means - is that if you do have a problem, you've already been predisposed to having that problem in some way.
We still don't know why some people get PTSD or PD or AD and some people don't. Soldiers who serve together in the same combat situations, one will come back PTSD the other will come back fine, we don't know why that is. PTSD is actually much rarer than people think it is, because nowadays we look at any traumatic event and think PTSD.
So, in my opinion (not being a doctor or any degree of expert), if you were neurologically predisposed to mental illness or to stress or to anxiety or whatever is wrong that would cause you to manifest these issues in the wake of trauma, circumcision could definitely count as a traumatic experience. And in men, circumcision is definitely linked to increased anxiety.
Take a look at some of these:
Link Removed
http://www.forbes.com/sites/abigail...-makes-you-crazy-so-holland-moves-to-stop-it/
Dead Link Removed
http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/
[DLMURL]http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_psychological_effects.html[/DLMURL]
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/
As a grounds for trauma - the procedure itself is pointless, cruel and agonizing. It does a lot of physical damage, leaves permanent scarring, can actually visibly cause deformities, it reduces sensation, it causes an extreme amount of pain to the infant as infants are typically not sedated for the procedure and this pain can last for weeks depending on the way the infant is circumcised. If any adult were circumcised against their will I would absolutely say that it would be grounds for trauma, absolutely. But this is not really about the validity of circumcision as a trauma but so much whether or not a human infant at such a young age would internalize that trauma enough to be significantly effected by it later than life.
At the same time, I would think that if a person were to be significantly affected mentally by circumcision that they would have had to have been predisposed initially to anxiety or stress - the reason I say this being that circumcision is so extremely prevalent and it does not consistently cause issues (it is, however, linked with many issues.) Even with PTSD, regular traumatic events are usually dealt with in a way that results in a person not developing PTSD. PTSD is not "A person experiences trauma and then inevitably gets PTSD." The same goes for PDs and ADs. Just because you've experienced something traumatic, does not inherently mean you will have a problem. So - what that means - is that if you do have a problem, you've already been predisposed to having that problem in some way.
We still don't know why some people get PTSD or PD or AD and some people don't. Soldiers who serve together in the same combat situations, one will come back PTSD the other will come back fine, we don't know why that is. PTSD is actually much rarer than people think it is, because nowadays we look at any traumatic event and think PTSD.
So, in my opinion (not being a doctor or any degree of expert), if you were neurologically predisposed to mental illness or to stress or to anxiety or whatever is wrong that would cause you to manifest these issues in the wake of trauma, circumcision could definitely count as a traumatic experience. And in men, circumcision is definitely linked to increased anxiety.
Take a look at some of these:
Link Removed
http://www.forbes.com/sites/abigail...-makes-you-crazy-so-holland-moves-to-stop-it/
Dead Link Removed
http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/
[DLMURL]http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_psychological_effects.html[/DLMURL]
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/
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- #9
anthony
Founder
I think it would be near impossible to actually pinpoint getting circumcised as a child, to being a traumatic event in adulthood years. Getting a needle can be traumatic, but that is not "abnormally" traumatic that relates to PTSD diagnosis. Being circumcised would be considered a "normal" part of life, just like going to get your immunisation needles.
A female getting her pap-smear every year is "traumatic" by definition, but within the "normal" scope of expected traumatic events within life.
A female getting her pap-smear every year is "traumatic" by definition, but within the "normal" scope of expected traumatic events within life.
Absolutely disagree. The two experiences are not even comparable. A pap smear is not comparable to circumcision either. Circumcision has no medical purpose and genital mutilation by every definition of the word.
It is absolutely abnormally traumatic to cut out parts of an infant male's penis for no reason, without anaesthesia. It is normal to have a pap smear or get immunizations - these are prophylactic measures. Circumcision is just asinine and damaging from a psychological and medical standpoint. Nor can it be appropriately explained by anyone, ever, what prophylactic capacity circumcision has.
However, as for being abnormally traumatic enough to cause PTSD - I would agree, just because it happens too early for an infant to remember it, as was defined above. It is, however, certainly an abnormal event, and certainly a traumatic event.
It isn't defined as a normal, expected "trauma" - as part of life, because an infant is not intelligent enough to understand what is "normal" or what isn't. All the infant knows is that it hurts beyond tolerance. It's the equivalent of repeatedly punching a baby in the face over and over (obviously the injury is not equivalent, but the pain factor, and the "wow, that is really not acceptable" factor is certainly).
It's all pain to an infant, they can't conceptualize anything else. So, realistically, if pain constitutes trauma, circumcision is traumatizing. (And, keeping in mind, the pain from an immunization or the pain from a pap smear is nowhere near the pain infants experience during circumcision.)
It wouldn't cause PTSD, because it is impossible to get PTSD if you can't form memories of the event neurologically, but if you as an infant were predisposed to developing anxiety from pain and trauma, circumcision could definitely fall in that stressor category.
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- #11
anthony
Founder
You are confusing your individual beliefs with medicine Sea. Because you don't believe in it, does not mean it's wrong, or traumatic. Some cultures don't have it, some do. If you go down that road, then you may as well toss in religious belief or not religious belief, which is right? Black or white skin? And the list goes on...
That is heading down a racist view of individualistic beliefs... very dangerous compared with what is classified as medically abnormally traumatic.
There is also no empirical data to substantiate genetics in PTSD. There are some elements to genetics, yet even in identical twins, those elements typically only amount to 80% genetic attributes, compared to non-identical twins, around 40% genetic attributes, let alone siblings goes even lower again with genetic similarities.
That is heading down a racist view of individualistic beliefs... very dangerous compared with what is classified as medically abnormally traumatic.
There is also no empirical data to substantiate genetics in PTSD. There are some elements to genetics, yet even in identical twins, those elements typically only amount to 80% genetic attributes, compared to non-identical twins, around 40% genetic attributes, let alone siblings goes even lower again with genetic similarities.
You have to be kidding me. I'm racist because ... I can't even begin. I'm just going to point out some of this from my perspective only to address Anthony's point, keeping in mind that it really does no longer have anything to do with the thread:
Link Removed
Circumcision can directly and indirectly cause: aesthetic damage, phimosis, hairy shaft, wound dehiscence, de-gloving, haemorrhage, meatal stenosis, meatal ulcer, urethrocutaneous fistula, infection, including MRSA, neuroma, blockage of the urethra, buried penis, penoscrotal webbing, deformity, oxygen deprivation clamp injuries, plastibell injuries, loss of glans, ablation (removal) of the penis, scarring, and decreased sensation.
It is genital mutilation. There are cultures in Africa that view it as culturally appropriate to slice off a woman's clitoris. That is genital mutilation too. Only we feel it is "true" mutilation. As opposed to .........? People think FGM is abnormally traumatic. Well, it's culturally accepted. It's culturally accepted here to perform circumcisions despite their being linked to more medical harm than medical good. (And again, this has nothing to do with beliefs or opinions or religions or whatever.) Spare me the whole "wah wah it's not even remotely the same" crap - I'm not stupid, I know that. But that doesn't mean that is not what circumcision is.
I think you've just exploded my brain.
It's a medical fact that circumcision is painful and pointless. Absolute medical fact. That has nothing to do with my beliefs at all. There is absolutely no medical reason to circumcise a healthy, in-tact, functional male infant. (I see you confusing that with me saying "There is no cultural/religious reason" or "There is no reason ever, period.") It causes extreme pain and it can lead to a lot of complications. It's medical fact that circumcision decreases sensitivity and causes scarring (which is physical damage).
I'm honestly not even interested in bringing my personal opinions on the subject into the matter, but the idea that circumcision is not "abnormally traumatic" to an infant, who knows nothing aside from the fact that they are in an extreme amount of pain, is what I felt was pretty ridiculous. It's got absolutely nothing to do with my personal opinions that circumcision is painful to a traumatic extent.
So, keeping in mind what I just said above, without throwing words like "Racist" at me, lol, PAIN = TRAUMA to an infant. An infant isn't smart enough to intellectualize anything else, So, keeping in with the actual topic of the OP's question, is circumcision painful? YES. So could that, if he were predisposed, lead to issues if he interpreted that as trauma? Yes.
Link Removed
Circumcision can directly and indirectly cause: aesthetic damage, phimosis, hairy shaft, wound dehiscence, de-gloving, haemorrhage, meatal stenosis, meatal ulcer, urethrocutaneous fistula, infection, including MRSA, neuroma, blockage of the urethra, buried penis, penoscrotal webbing, deformity, oxygen deprivation clamp injuries, plastibell injuries, loss of glans, ablation (removal) of the penis, scarring, and decreased sensation.
It is genital mutilation. There are cultures in Africa that view it as culturally appropriate to slice off a woman's clitoris. That is genital mutilation too. Only we feel it is "true" mutilation. As opposed to .........? People think FGM is abnormally traumatic. Well, it's culturally accepted. It's culturally accepted here to perform circumcisions despite their being linked to more medical harm than medical good. (And again, this has nothing to do with beliefs or opinions or religions or whatever.) Spare me the whole "wah wah it's not even remotely the same" crap - I'm not stupid, I know that. But that doesn't mean that is not what circumcision is.
I think you've just exploded my brain.
It's a medical fact that circumcision is painful and pointless. Absolute medical fact. That has nothing to do with my beliefs at all. There is absolutely no medical reason to circumcise a healthy, in-tact, functional male infant. (I see you confusing that with me saying "There is no cultural/religious reason" or "There is no reason ever, period.") It causes extreme pain and it can lead to a lot of complications. It's medical fact that circumcision decreases sensitivity and causes scarring (which is physical damage).
I'm honestly not even interested in bringing my personal opinions on the subject into the matter, but the idea that circumcision is not "abnormally traumatic" to an infant, who knows nothing aside from the fact that they are in an extreme amount of pain, is what I felt was pretty ridiculous. It's got absolutely nothing to do with my personal opinions that circumcision is painful to a traumatic extent.
So, keeping in mind what I just said above, without throwing words like "Racist" at me, lol, PAIN = TRAUMA to an infant. An infant isn't smart enough to intellectualize anything else, So, keeping in with the actual topic of the OP's question, is circumcision painful? YES. So could that, if he were predisposed, lead to issues if he interpreted that as trauma? Yes.
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