Coercion, Choice & Clusterf*cks In Between.

[Ronin]

Using other thread on (dual) victim-perpetrator issues / forced to hurt others as a spin off for this.

One of the topics that's loaded as f*ck for me, things I did unsettling me about as much as I didn't but they reaaally tried their best to make me to.

Me life? Usually things people do serious jailtime, if they do them. And make it out. So a million reasons I'm not gonna talk the concretes.

Things past? Usually gut me in little aspects. Made peace with the whole. Or made peace with the fact I'll never make peace with them. Either way, all's said and done. Just the ghosts remain.

So let's talk ghosts. :sneaky:

Of the wrecked self concept, guilt, remorse, regrets, shame, fear, fear of self, avoidance, avoiding self to the I'll eat my gun point, terror not just in the night, rage at ever being in that situation, own choices, others and own victim alike, the utter disappointment in self and whole palette of self loathing, numbness about things, rather-numb-than-feeling, lost and tossed feelings for years or decades after, Why-you're-good/vic just doesn't cut it and similar eerie kind.

Reminders: Public forums.
Keep secure and safe.
Self incrimination mindfulness.

Other legal, admins would probably know better.

 

[Mee]

Hmm. In my experience few people do jail time. Only one of my perps did jail time- and not for what he did to me.

Thanks for this thread Ronin.

I also reference the cognitive distortion thread I posted last year where the fact was accepted I am not a rapist but an unwitting accomplice to it.

Yet - I still ache over it. Typing now - in the paragraph break I choked up and tears pour out. I will never ever forgive myself so I have to learn how to live with it. To be kinder about it.
I do not put myself in the same bracket as that perp, not that perp in the same bracket as a perp of aggravated rape. But no one would put me in the same bracket as a child victim with a gun held to their head and forced to have sex either - That would be inaccurate. My informed consent was taken and I am a victim too- but there are degrees. This was my trigger incident for a couple of reasons. 1. Because I took someone else’s consent. 2. Because I had allowed myself to be emotionally vulnerable with someone who was predating on me. It was not just sex .
For me - physical only rape has not bourne the same wounds at all. It’s not nice or insignificant. It’s not the same as being hit I think . But nor is it as bad ( for me) as the emotional fraud, gaslighting and total hitting of deceptive rape.

Shrug.

 

[Ronin]

Well, children with guns to their head get told they're dirty scum who ain't even strong enough to do what it takes to defend their land / are evil witches that caused the whole damn country to go pearshaped.

So the innocence of kids? Shrug. 1st world luxury.

Re. Your 2...
So 2 fold betrayal.

1) By your mind / judgment / body / heart (soul and the like for those of faith)
2) By the perp / betraying you, the trust, the whole relationship, other person on all these too, the common decency & morals held dear *to* that point, likely more.
(3) Of anyone / by else, that couldn't prevent it or minimize it for you/the vic either.)

Likely way more // need grabs words for things understood/lived. :ninja:

And not all physical is worse.

There was a situation in my life I'd beaten someone dear to a bloody pulp.
Gutted me.

But not nearly as bad as the other someone I shattered by what I said.

Just because I figured it will keep him safer, and more able to escape as planned to.

ETA: Never forgive yourself is a damn long time.

Time, truly, scars & leaves behind some wounds. It doesn't heal them. But closes them. They're just a faint flicker, going with the wind, again... unless that piece of you is needed in the now. And that hurts, differently. But closed once? Fades again.

 

[Mee]

Well, children with guns to their head get told they're dirty scum who ain't even strong enough to do what it takes to defend their land / are evil witches that caused the whole damn country to go pearshaped.

So the innocence of kids? Shrug. 1st world luxury.

Re. Your 2...
So 2 fold betrayal.

1) By your mind / judgment / body / heart (soul and the like for those of faith)
2) By the perp / betraying you, the trust, the whole relationship, other person on all these too, the common decency & morals held dear *to* that point, likely more.
3) Of anyone / by else, that couldn't prevent it or minimize it for you/the vic either

Likely way more // need grabs words for things understood/lived. :ninja:

And not all physical is worse.

There was a situation in my life I'd beaten someone dear to a bloody pulp.
Gutted me.

But not nearly as bad as the other someone I shattered by what I said.

Just because I figured it will keep him safer, and more able to escape as planned to.

I disagree about children . But I do think we have an odd line of culpability/ innocence with children v adult victims ( I wrote an essay I am reasonably content with but could not get published about this )

Yes to one two and three.

I have not suffered an aggravated rape, certainly as an adult. There was an aggravated incident as a child that was extremely conditioning but not as - Sexually invasive- it’s totally conditioned my fawn response and I do not blame myself for that.

I was also reminded way back by a self defence teacher who did not know my history- if you ever get attacked and can’t run, just lie still or comply . Then you are more likely to live through it. I thought ‘yeah I know’ . But said nothing.

The problem with heart / mind / soul whatever stuff along with body is that the self blame is just .... inescapable. I absolutely do still love a perp. I do not love my parents, but my emotions for them are complicated. I feel fondness as well as betrayal for some of the people who have hurt me most. And that’s MY fault.

I also cannot but the good and bad people stuff. I just cannot. I own stuff which I know is environment damaging. That’s not good, it isn’t. Because I rationalise it as need or ‘how everybody lives’ doesn’t make it harmless, or not made in conditions I can guarantee are ok. I am super conscious of this. I hate to admit that I really miss Oreos which I cannot eat on ethical grounds. I can’t walk away from this guilt free then point at other harm doers and say they are worse than me.

 

[Tinyflame]

I've dealt with some of this, and it's all too much to think of, tbh. But I was also told (and other stuff with it) what is past is gone; forgiven; start new (this is irrespective of others forgiving me, or me forgiving myself). But also that, who we were makes us who we are now, so there is supposed to be no shame. Because crises cut away what doesn't really matter, unless we run from it, avoid it, or blame someone else for it.

Upshot is (so I've been told, and now try to remember and do), when a reminder comes (and everything with it) remember no, that's over, it's wiped away (figuratively speaking- can't think of another word). Start now, it's 'now' that is so.

ETA, not sure how easy or useful or sometimes even possible that is to do if people are throwing it in your face, so it's also imp to counter that/ surround yourself with otherwise. :hug:

 

[Ronin]

I was using that as an example / that human rights are viewed via very different lens, different lands / cultures. ;)

So not about opinions more reminiscing / explaining that people blame kids hard just easily. Not that kids get held as a blameless standard *everyone* would agreed to.

I think if something changes how you react to that depth, deliberately? Like conditioning of whatever type & scale?

Then it was VERY invasive.
Changing the way you react about your own survival or those close to you is a pretty big B big deal thing.

Faar worse than other harm to the body. (Since *also* harm to the body, and f*cking grave, helloo, brains central for a reason.)

As otherwise, broken bones mend. Bruises heal. Prosthetics exist. The like.

And nah... self blame doesn't make you at fault @Mee. You're allowed to love who hurt you. It's just not wise to let them do it, again. That love hurts bad enough.

 

[Ronin]

I was also told (and other stuff with it) what is past is gone; forgiven; start new (this is irrespective of others forgiving me, or me forgiving myself). But also that, who we were makes us who we are now, so there is supposed to be no shame.

Because crises cut away what doesn't really matter, unless we run from it, avoid it, or blame someone else for it.

For true.

And bless the person / people who told you that, and you for relaying their words, along with adding your own.

 

[Mee]

I've dealt with some of this, and it's all too much to think of, tbh. But I was also told (and other stuff with it) what is past is gone; forgiven; start new (this is irrespective of others forgiving me, or me forgiving myself). But also that, who we were makes us who we are now, so there is supposed to be no shame. Because crises cut away what doesn't really matter, unless we run from it, avoid it, or blame someone else for it.

Upshot is (so I've been told, and now try to remember and do), when a reminder comes (and everything with it) remember no, that's over, it's wiped away (figuratively speaking- can't think of another word). Start now, it's 'now' that is so.

ETA, not sure how easy or useful or sometimes even possible that is to do if people are throwing it in your face, so it's also imp to counter that/ surround yourself with otherwise. :hug:

I think it’s helpful.
but I then also have to apply it to people who hurt me..... I guess that’s my point- the sauce must be the same for the goose and the gander to be reasonable.


( I do not think I hold on to blame for myself in lieu of justice for ‘them’ though I remain open to the possibility it’s something I cannot allow myself to feel yet)

 

[Ronin]

People can do the same awful thing for vastly different reasons.

While being very different proples.

So not like the act makes you alike.

 

[Mee]

People can do the same awful thing for vastly different reasons.

While being very different proples.

So not like the act makes you alike.

oh.
That IS true

 

[Tinyflame]

And bless the person / people who told you that, and you for relaying their words, along with adding your own.

Thank you @Ronin , yes. And not 'avoid' was not 'numb', I think (?), though that can be the same (except for numbing without trying to, that part I can't quite understand :confused: )

I think it’s helpful.
but I then also have to apply it to people who hurt me..... I guess that’s my point- the sauce must be the same for the goose and the gander to be reasonable.

Yes @Mee but you only need do the part that applies to you, it's your heart that is the application part, for you, they theirs'. (Hope that makes sense, can't find the words). :hug:

 

[Ronin]

Yes @Mee but you only need do the part that applies to you, it's your heart that is the application part, for you, they theirs'. (Hope that makes sense, can't find the words). :hug:

Might be similar concept, different words...

Even in the realm of difficult choices and outright hard ones, each person's are their own.

That you did yours can be completely different set of choices, in the same situation, even if the acts and results look or are the same.

The starting ground is different for each.
And it will always *be* different.