Combat Ptsd And Violence

[Sighs]

@Larksong said the following in another thread:
the effect of media sensationalism of PTSD "is to stigmatize not only veterans with PTSD, but all PTSD sufferers, as being potentially dangerous." They also write, "Simply put, PTSD is 'fear' based, not 'aggression' based.The DSM-IV-R (Diagnostic Statistical Manual, Revised) is clear."

Got me thinking and rather than hijack that thread I thought I would start another. I mean no disrespect at all to veterans by this post and I am not suggesting or implying that all veterans are violent or aggressive. I'm only seeking more understanding for myself and am interested in other's thoughts.

I agree that PTSD is fear based not aggression based, but my understanding is that the military spend a lot of effort altering soldiers 'fight or flee' adrenal response so that fight becomes the only option. And they do it well - they have to or the military becomes ineffective.

Add to that the fact that soldiers are trained in ways to incapacitate another person - permanently if necessary. Then add to that the fact that a soldier with combat experience has crossed that line and taken human life. To me - and I'm no professional - that has to make a combat vet potentially more dangerous than the average joe. I'm leaving aside PTSD altogether at this point.

Does anyone have a view about what might make a combat vet actually dangerous rather than potentially dangerous? My father and his brothers are all combat vets and all physically abused their wives when drinking. My partner is a combat vet and doesn't drink. He has never laid a hand on me in anger and I have set myself a boundary that if he were ever to hit me I will leave.

 

[Gunsmith]

To me it's a comfort zone. I've grown comfortable with violence. I've told jokes and passed out cigarettes in the middle of a gunfight to lighten the mood. We are trained to commit violence- to the point that it becomes a thoughtless kneejerk reaction. Those of us in the warrior profession are all potentially dangerous, but I think other influencers are required before it's taken to another level. Alcohol and other depressants definitely bring out the worst. Theres a certain point where a vet is all laughter and joy and that next drink drives him to misery.

Again using myself as an example. I get frustrated because it's a problem I don't know how to solve on my own with the skills I possess. The frustration becomes rage and all I want to do is go all "Hulk Smash" on everything because it's a course of action I'm comfortable, confident, and familiar with.

 

[franciemarnie]

If the military can alter the adrenal response, I'd like to know more. I am sick to death of my adrenals gone wild. Not towards violence, but a hyper charged state of vigilance. If adrenals can be trained, I'd like them to go the other way.

I don't know about the military myself. But those words stuck out to me. I am -- as always -- still up after 2 a.m. And probably will be until 4 or 5. Holding vigil for something that ended in 1970. Excuse this segue.

 

[anthony]

Military training is somewhat psychological based, and there has been a lot of effort go into that for the combat aspect. It is behavioural modification though, not much else. It is via repetition and exposure to conflict with repetition, it makes a solider respond in a behaviourally instant manner, being the point. Using live rounds to be put over your head, so you're used to the noise and still respond instinctively. Drill is part of the behavioural modification, because it changes your behaviour to react on command. People think drill is all about marching, but it is actually the foundation of behavioural modification. Again, repetition, learn by numbers, words, then put it all together. You then have peer learning, where a weak link is taught a lesson / picked up by the team, to either get them through or let them fail to get them out, because they're a danger. The team usually make that decision...

It is all behavioural modification, and whilst it can be undone, it's extremely hard. It requires a lot of cognitive retraining, constant vigilance of your own thoughts to actions, so you can modify to what is socially acceptable when you catch yourself doing something military, and time is required. Time fixes a lot when combined with hard self work.

Fear is the primary underling to PTSD, yes. Fear makes us react certain ways. Soldiers are trained to use that fear to get angry, bottle it up, then explode as required. The problem with PTSD, is the cap is no longer easy to keep capped, and things that never bothered a soldier before, now does with PTSD, thus their cup fills quicker and the cap explodes to what is known, what has been repeated and drilled into them... alcohol makes the process faster, as does most drugs.

Most soldiers with PTSD drink to suppress, to try and keep the rage down, but the problem is that alcohol lowers inhibition, thus the reactions come quicker and with less required to trigger them. If I ever say anything to a soldier who really wants to change, is to work on cutting down alcohol consumption, forced daily limits to no more than 4 beers, and even make them light beer. No hard spirits, wine or such. Get that under control first. Proving to do that with little relapse, you then move onto cognitive biases. You retrain your brain to identify negative thinking styles, change them to realistic evaluations and then change your response. It takes practice and often you sit there for 30 seconds thinking, but you get better and faster to do it instinctively in time.

Get both of those under control and you lower depression, anxiety and overall symptoms enough to go poke around in trauma itself and solve those distortions. Sure, you will spike straight back up, but atleast that is a level you know you can control, and isn't on top of your old level, where you would meltdown / explode. The first six months to year for a veteran needs to be concentrated on those two areas. For those that do it quickly and kick arse in changing their cognitive thoughts, which are what your behaviours derive from, then you can go poke the pig (trauma) a little sooner... and things like prolonged exposure or EMDR are best for veterans, as EMDR is an exposure therapy. They have the best controls for the level of anger and rage present.

 

[Deleted member 28403]

@franciemarnie
For what I know military won't make a vigiliant person contra, and many hypervigiliant people commit suicide in military for that reason, they just can't take it because they notice to much, and they see no other way out.

The military tries to choose people who won't notice stuff and who are really thick, as they won't be broken that easily.

Do you havr anything that really calms you? Or anyone?

 

[scout86]

If adrenals can be trained, I'd like them to go the other way.

I think this is kind of the point of "therapy". (I'm being serious.)

My T has said (rather often) that fear and anger are close relatives. Anger is one of your potential responses to fear. As @anthony said, part of military training is designed to channel the fear response in that direction because it's useful. For some of us who have no military training, our brains might decide to channel things in that direction anyway. Sneak up behind me and touch my arm without warning and I guarantee I'll probably swing out you without ever taking the time to think. (You take the time to think & you're dead.)

Does that sort of reaction make someone with PTSD potentially more "dangerous" than someone who doesn't have it? I think so, yes.

@Sighs , you've at least partially answered your own question. Things like alcohol definitely make things more dangerous. Anything that inhibits the ability of the higher centers of the brain to ride herd on the more primitive parts is going to increase the potential for bad behavior, maybe dangerous behavior.

 

[Gunsmith]

@franciemarnie I've got pretty wicked hyper vigilance too. I find I can settle it down by doing something that requires concentration- I load custom ammunition, build rifles, and play video games that engrossed me to tune out my surroundings for a while. Even a good book will do it for me, I read one a week at minimum.

 

[anthony]

The military tries to choose people who won't notice stuff and who are really thick

You're 14 years of age, I don't think you should be posting your limited view of soldiers or the enlistment process. Most countries require certain minimum education levels, especially math and english, as both are required in the military. Most jobs in the military require higher education levels... as even infantry nowadays is far more advanced technologically than it ever has been. Military enlistment encompasses vast psychological testing, to remove the psychologically challenged members as much as possible. The military want soldiers who notice everything, they train you that way, in actuality... which brings me back to you're 14 years of age and are commenting on a discussion that you have no concept or scope in what you're talking about.

 

[Sighs]

@otakujome - you clearly have no experience with military personnel, "Noticing stuff" is what keeps you alive in a warzone. Being "really thick" will mean you fail the entrance exams for the military. Its just as well @anthony pointed out your age so your ignorance can be excused by your youth.

 

[Deleted member 28403]

I am sorry for talking about stuff I don't know about, I apologize and pull back from the thread