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Emdr

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Actually Jack, from my perspective to make EMDR work effectively you have to absolute trust with your therapist, because they come up real close, so you don't want a hot looking therapist that smells good. lol.

It's an awesome therapy if it works and face it, we should want to do whatever it takes.

It's used mainly for people having a real rough time with a particular incident that keeps coming back. I know we have many multiples of incidents, but most veterans have one or two in particular. So they talk you through that incident while conducting the therapy. My therapist used the eraser on the end of a pencil. I too had a happy place to go to.

Catch me in a couple of weeks
 
Jackrabbit,

My experience with EMDR is the same as most things in life. It is a tough road. My therapist spent a month with me, three days a week, two hours per session, just getting to the point where we started doing EMDR. During that time we didn't "do therapy". Of course we were, but it sure didn't feel like it to me. I was just telling my stories. I didn't want to tell my stories. "There is no way she can understand me." I said. "How is talking about it going to help?" I said. It was just talking, me telling my stories, her watching me. Whenever I started getting "activated" (showing a physical response to my anger, fear, pain) she would stop me. Then we would spend a bit of time, sometimes hours, getting me calmed down. Her opinion is that when you start reacting (foot tapping, sweating, tingling, flushing of the face, etc) you are just re-traumatizing yourself. It was very frustrating. Sometimes I would start getting activated by saying the first three words...then 1.5 hours of her getting me calmed down. WTF!?

Then we started with EMDR. Again, as with all things it was one day — good — one day — god awful. Several sessions had me completely disassociated, so much so that I fell asleep! She would send me home, then clearly worried about me, call that evening to check up on my status. Several sessions I left feeling on top of the world.

In the end, I think that it was good stuff. It, and the help of the folks here, brought me from the edge, to just standing looking at the edge. I don't think it is a cure-all, but it works. For me anyway.
 
I've posted this (or a version thereof) before on the PTSD Forum and had positive feedback. Hope it helps!

I'm a psychologist who uses EMDR as my primary treatment psychotherapy and I've also personally had EMDR therapy for anxiety, panic, grief, and “small t” trauma. As a client, EMDR worked extremely well and also really fast. As an EMDR therapist, and in my role as a facilitator who trains other therapists in EMDR (certified by the EMDR International Assoc. and trained by the EMDR Inst, both of which I strongly recommend in an EMDR therapist) I have used EMDR successfully with panic disorders, childhood sexual/physical/emotional abuse and neglect, single incident trauma and complex/chronic PTSD, anxiety, depression, grief, body image, phobias, distressing memories, bad dreams and more...


A few words about the research behind EMDR:

EMDR is a treatment approach which has been empirically validated in over 24 randomized studies of trauma victims. It is considered one of the three treatments of choice for trauma (along with CBT and PE) by organizations such as ISTSS (International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies), American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, Department of Veteran Affairs, Department of Defense, Departments of Health in Northern Ireland, UK, Israel, the Netherlands, France, and other countries and organizations.

See Foa, E.B., Keane, T.M., Friedman, M.J., & Cohen, J.A. (2009). Effective treatments for PTSD: Practice Guidelines of the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies New York: Guilford Press. EMDR was listed as an effective and empirically supported treatment for PTSD, and was given an AHCPR “A” rating for adult PTSD.

As noted in the American Psychiatric Association Practice Guidelines (2004, p.18), in EMDR “traumatic material need not be verbalized; instead, patients are directed to think about their traumatic experiences without having to discuss them.” Given the reluctance of many combat veterans to divulge the details of their experience, as well as other trauma survivors, this factor is relevant to willingness to initiate treatment, retention and therapeutic gains.


The research shows that EMDR works, and at 15-month follow-up continues to hold (see Wilson, S., Becker, L.A., & Tinker, R.H. (1997). Fifteen-month follow-up of eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR) treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder and psychological trauma. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 65, 1047-1056).

The World Health Organization (WHO) now has "guidelines on problems and disorders specifically related to stress." (In press)
“Individual or group cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) with a trauma focus, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR), or stress management should be considered for adults with posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD).”
"Individual or group cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) with a trauma focus or eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR) should be considered for children and adolescents with posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD)."


It's really crucial that the therapist spends enough time in one of the initial phases (Phase 2) in EMDR that involves preparing for memory processing or desensitization (memory processing or desensitization - phases 3-6 - is often referred to as "EMDR" which is actually an 8-phase psychotherapy). In this phase resources are "front-loaded" so that you have a "floor" or "container" to help with processing the really hard stuff. In Phase 2 you learn a lot of great coping strategies and self-soothing techniques which you can use during EMDR processing or anytime you feel the need. So if you start feeling overwhelmed or that it's too intense, you can ground yourself (with your therapist's help in session, and on your own between sessions) and feel safe enough to continue the work. In my practice, after the Phase 2 work lets us know that my patient is safe enough and able to cope with any emotion and/or physical sensation both during and between EMDR processing sessions, I often suggest we try a much less intense memory first if there is one that happened BEFORE the trauma(s). If there isn't one, then I suggest we start developmentally with the least disturbing memory and work our way "up" to the most disturbing event(s).

Grounding exercises are indispensable in everyday life, and really essential in stressful times. Anyone can use some of the techniques in Dr. Shapiro's new book "Getting Past Your Past: Take Control of Your Life with Self-Help Techniques from EMDR." Dr. Shapiro is the founder/creator of EMDR but all the proceeds from the book go to two charities: the EMDR Humanitarian Assistance Program and the EMDR Research Foundation). Anyway, the book is terrific. It's an easy read, helps you understand what's "pushing" your feelings and behavior, helps you connect the dots from past experiences to current life. Also teaches readers lots of helpful techniques that can be used immediately and that are also used during EMDR therapy to calm disturbing thoughts and feelings.

As I’ve mentioned about Phase 2, during EMDR therapy you learn coping strategies and self-soothing techniques. You learn how to access a “Safe or Calm Place” which you can use at ANY TIME during EMDR processing (or on your own) if it feels scary, or too emotional, too intense. There are other kinds of Resource Development strategies that can be used depending on the skill level and experience of your therapist (Google "Resource development and installation" and find articles by Janina Fisher, Debbie Korn, and/or Andrew Leeds, ask about John Omaha's AMST - Affect Management Skills Training, or the Imaginal Nurturing protocol).

One of the key assets of EMDR is that YOU, the client, are in control NOW, even though you likely were not during past events. You NEVER need re-live an experience or go into great detail, ever! You NEVER need to go through the entire memory. YOU can decide to keep the lights (or the alternating sounds and/or tactile pulsars, or the waving hand, or hand/knee tapping - all forms of bilateral stimulation that should be decided by the client for the client's comfort) going, or stop them, whichever helps titrate – measure and adjust the balance or “dose“ of the processing. During EMDR processing there are regular “breaks” and you can control when and how many but the therapist should be stopping the bilateral stimulation every 25-50 or so passes of the lights to ask you to take a deep breath and to say just a bit of what you’re noticing. The breaks help keep a “foot in the present” while you’re processing the past. Again, and I can’t say this enough, YOU ARE IN CHARGE so YOU can make the process tolerable. And your therapist should be experienced in the EMDR techniques that help make it the gentlest and safest way to neutralize bad life experiences and build resources.

Pacing and dosing are critically important. So if you ever feel that EMDR processing is too intense then it might be time to go back over all the resources that should be used both IN session and BETWEEN sessions. Your therapist should be using a variety of techniques to make painful processing less painful, like suggesting you turn the scene in your mind to black and white, lower the volume, or, erect a bullet-proof glass wall between you and the painful scene, or, imagine the abuser speaking in a Donald Duck voice... and so forth. There are a lot of these kinds of "interventions" that ease the processing. They are called "cognitive interweaves" that your therapist can use, and that also can help bring your adult self's perspective into the work (or even an imaginary Adult Perspective). Such interweaves are based around issues of Safety, Responsibility, and Choice. So therapist questions like "are you safe now?" or "who was responsible? and "do you have more choices now?" are all very helpful in moving the processing along.

In addition to my therapy practice, I roam the web looking for EMDR discussions, try to answer questions about it posted by clients/patients, and respond to the critics out there. It's not a cure-all therapy. However, it really is an extraordinary psychotherapy and its results last. In the hands of a really experienced EMDR therapist, it's the most gentle way of working through disturbing experiences.


 
Patti, thanks a lot for that useful information. I gather you got Anthony's approval to post in this forum, if not, please do.
 
Hi Patti,

Thank you for the intel, and I have a number of questions, but much of your post seems to be a form letter and implies that you don't realize which forum you're posting on. There is, for all intents and purposes, one primary form of trauma on this site.

Please confirm your presence with Anthony and then respond again.
 
I appreciate the discussion on this list about what works best and what doesn't work for getting over trauma issues. I am an old soldier (enlisted in the Army in 1966), ended up having to work on my own "stuff" after my last deployment and after retiring from the Army I have a counseling center (Google = Soldier-Center) near Ft Campbell, KY where I work with soldiers and vets to reclaim their lives. I have been using EMDR to treat soldiers and veterans for the past 12 years and find it to be one of the best treatments available. You will not find it offered in many VA programs because the VA has invested a lot of their efforts in their own programs around Prolonged Exposure and Cognitive Processing Therapy. They don't usually include EMDR in their studies or treatment but they do acknowledge it is effective. All three of these therapies are recognized to be effective in treatment as noted in the VA/DOD Clinical Practice Guidelines (2004, 2010) which recognizes EMDR, CPT and PE as being "Category A" (top of the line) treatment for adult trauma. Additionally, the Surgeon General of the Army acknowledges EMDR, PE, and CPT as being effective for the treatment of soldiers with PTSD. EMDR is effective in treating much more than PTSD; it helps with most life adjustment issues. The approach EMDR uses is different than other therapies. A person does not have to get into the details of telling the therapist what happened. There is no homework with EMDR. The dropout rate is very low because people can get through the treatment. I have many veterans who were treated with other therapies and were overwhelmed during those treatments. When later treated with EMDR they were able to get through their EMDR sessions fine. A vet told me that after one of the other therapies he would be so overwhelmed he would go out and get drunk after his treatment. They tried it with him for four sessions, each time with the same results, before he sought EMDR. He got through EMDR, working on the same event as before, in one 45 minute session. EMDR does not hold a person in the intensity of the memory of what happened but has the person deal with the memory from the past by continually keeping them aware they are in the present. The average number of sessions I need for treatment with EMDR at my center ranges from 8 to 18 depending on how much the person has been through. This means by 8-18 sessions the person is healthy enough they usually no longer meet the requirement for a PTSD diagnosis. Then they begin reintegrating back into a healthy lifestyle learning about healthy anger and other emotions and how to develop social networks with friends again.

As I mentioned, I had to work through my own "stuff" following my last deployment. Seeking help was the best gift I ever gave myself. I found it was easier to give other people my opinion but I found it difficult to know where to turn in dealing with my own issues. A buddy pointed me in the right direction. If interested in knowing more about EMDR check out EMDR website. You can also located a list of therapists trained in EMDR. A number of us specialize in working with military personnel and veterans because we too have been there.
 
The new person I am going to see said he is an expert in EMDR, never heard of it. I read all these replies and seem to see only the ones practicing it giving it good marks. I have "chronic" or "severe" PTSD and I don't like people rooting around. Additionally, I really am a 35 year veteran of Kenpo, I'm a very dangerous person to "root" around with. I have multiple experiences and memories, some from down range and some before the service, including one murder, one suicide (my father), and one death, two of three directly caused by me. Then there is the bad childhood and last but not least, DOWN RANGE. I go to see this cat on the 5th for the first time. I really think rooting around won't be a good thing. I read that you don't have to re-live the experiences, but I need to know, no shit, is this going to bring some bad shit back. I'm finding it hard to come up with excuses to keep living, so you can see why I'm apprehensive about this EMDR. I need to know so I can tell this cat in advance. I haven't heard too much positive about this from the people I trust in this forum.
 
I read that you don't have to re-live the experiences, but I need to know, no shit, is this going to bring some bad shit back. I'm finding it hard to come up with excuses to keep living, so you can see why I'm apprehensive about this EMDR. I need to know so I can tell this cat in advance. I haven't heard too much positive about this from the people I trust in this forum.

Boz,

That is the thing with EMDR, it isn't really rooting around. At least how it was done to me. It is working on an individual trauma (not all at one time) in short bursts. I cannot describe it very well. I really need to work on that.

Brother, the simple answer to your question is that you are already reliving all of those experiences EVERY DAY OF YOUR LIFE. You are trying to get to the point where you aren't doing that or when you do, it doesn't send you into the stratosphere or diving for cover.

Not trying to get on you here, but if you have been in Kenpo for 35 years you know a little something about control. You have also lived through the really tough part — the trauma. So, even though looking at your trauma(s) is like looking at a blow torch and you will want to do anything to get away from it. You have to deal with it in some way. EMDR might work for you. It might not. But you are not going to know if you don't try it. My advice, don't try it just once either. The first time you are going to be resisting it. You are going to be feeling weird with your new guy. You have to build trust first. If given the choice you wouldn't jump into a firefight with a bunch of random dudes off the street right? You more than likely did it with people you knew and trusted, to at the least, have your back when it was hitting the fan. It is no different with a psych. You must build trust with them (i.e., you are not going to hurt them), they must build trust with you (they are not going to hurt you). EMDR is not a cure-all, its just another tool to wrestle with the Beast.

Think it is like this: When you are digging a hole, sometimes a shovel works, sometimes you need a pickaxe, and sometimes you need a digging bar, and sometimes only dynamite will do.
 
Thank you for the good advise, I meet with the FNG and see what he is about, he comes highly recommended by the Lt. Col Doc I saw, so I will see how it goes, see if I trust, although when I talked to him on the phone, he did come across as a good guy, and then perhaps see, if he is as good as he says he is, then he will probably do something along the lines of what you just said. Thank you again and your right of course, I do relive them, and you are also right about the Kenpo, I would NEVER us it against someone trying to help, I wasn't raised that way and would violate every reason I started. So thank you very much.
Boz
 
Just one broken monkey trying to help another broken monkey ;)

I wonder if you have 100,000 broken monkeys in a room, if they can come up with a cure?
 
it helped me when I was so sceptical but scraping the bottom of the barrel I had nowhere left to turn. not a cure but a tool on rebuilding the road or bridge back.

what other's have said and from just my personal experience so you might not agree or have a whole different experience-
1: i was dealing with one incident. i am not sure how well it can work if you have a back catalogue of trauma to focus on. that's a lot of work i guess
2: the safe, happy place you go to, has to be one that's genuine. don't conjure one up that's not reality, i tried that as a shortcut
3: it took me a long time with one guy to even start the step. it's a bit of white knuckle ride and i found it exhausting at first once i jumped in
4: don't quit if there is no immediate fix. you have to work at it however white your knuckles go.
 
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