News Events around the George Floyd protests and riots, US and beyond

[whiteraven]

There's no amount of "but they were rookies", or "do you know what these guys face every day" that changes what happened to George Floyd.

Agree here.

I think one thing that happens is that (some) people are trying to understand why they reacted as they did and, in talking through that, it sounds like they are making excuses for those involved in this.

Not sure why those other folks who hold on so tightly to the (inadequate) training and policies can't see that policies and practices don't count for shit if they get people killed.

 

[Rose White]

We have to change the culture of dominating others we think are less than.

I agree. I wonder if focusing on racism toward black people is the most effective way to change that culture overall, or if focusing on racism toward black people distracts from the goal of changing the entire culture of domination. Or maybe focusing on racism is one very effective way to make a big difference in changing the culture of domination.

Healthcare is statistically more dangerous for black women .

I think black people are statistically worse off in most categories, including income. And surprisingly, the racial category doing the best for income, is Asian. Then white, then Hispanic. How does knowledge of statistics affect changing the culture of domination?

I think training all professions in General Semantics would go a long way toward changing the culture of domination. Words matter. Awareness of projection matters. Awareness of black and white thinking and other cognitive distortions matters.

I think it’s wrong to ignore statistics. Black lives matter greatly. But to say that the culture of domination revolves around racism is short-sighted in my opinion. Racism is embedded in the culture of domination but is not the thing itself. The culture of domination includes racism. Racism is a worthwhile cause to examine. But we have seen how there are people who do not see race or racism as even existing, and yet still maintain a culture of domination. I think that the more people emphasize racism the more people who consider themselves color-blind will tune out. The emphasis on reducing violent culture seems more universal, and making it about racism gives a single focus. It’s kind of like holding two opposing viewpoints at the same time. If we focus too much on black lives we might lose sight of the culture of violent domination. And if we focus too much on violent domination we might lose sight of black lives. All are affected by violent domination, but black lives are statistically more likely to be affected. It’s a good place to focus, because it’s the biggest group affected (except Native Americans when adjusted for population), so theoretically should yield the most potential gains. Maybe it’s okay to focus on both. Have groups working on the racism problem and groups working on the violent culture of domination problem. Both are important. One need not exclude the other, and their work would support each other.

 

[blackemerald1]

I've quoted myself here sideways bc to anyone reading your responses you'd think I hadn't written this ever. Yet I did and you've chosen not to acknowledge and instead?

It's essential that one have a understanding of why & how they work like they do before passing judgement.

His death is unjustified I agree with you.

Making assumptions about the political motivations of the prosecution etc.

^There's no assumptions being made. It's a fact. The higher the charge the more onerous the burden of proof. Intent is at the heart of this and you know that!

I think this thread has become unhelpful for me.

^Righto then... that's your perogative but it's not because....

The issues here are being so overshadowed by what some military-type police force faces every day that the complete brutality of what happened to George Floyd, and how wrong that is, has been lost.

^Do you mean here on this thread? Because I suppose in the echo chamber irl where there is this idea that we can apply fast justice because apparently it's the right way to make positive change.....we blindly accept public opinion, &a video & go straight to defunding entire police forces and ripping away an essential service from hundreds of thousands of people, perhaps millions of people who otherwise would reach for the phone in an emergency and dial??

Is that what you'd prefer instead of a cool, calm approach?

Police are para-military in so many ways - it'd be easier to pick out the ways they are not. Fundamentally there is a military back-bone to all organised police forces. What do you want and why would you change what already works well?

Unless other, less forceful tactics are available. That's the job. Not an easy job. But that's the job.

^And that was an important exception - unless other, less forceful tactics are available - that is the issue. So glad you dropped that in there... cos so often, in our rush to judgement and in our efforts to fill the void of what we cannot possibly know, we make irreparable decisions. Let's not do that here.

The answer isn't to start accepting unnecessary brutality, and shift the line the of what is and isn't acceptable. The answer is to train them better,

^Well, I don't know why they just don't give you a call then sideways? :roflmao: lol... cos you know the answer!

Personally I think there are a lot of issues wrapped up in this killing - lack of training is definitely one of them true - lack of funding, recruiting practices and on we go..

There's no amount of "but they were rookies", or "do you know what these guys face every day" that changes what happened to George Floyd.

No.. who said that it would?

There is no amount of chain-of-command passing the buck mentality that change the fact that his daughter will spend the rest of her life without a father. Unnecessarily.

^Really emotive last comment there...

Again, appropriate acknowledgement of the chain of command in any organisation isn't passing the buck. It's real and important. It saves lives. But I know... nobody wants to look at what FR's and LEO's do that is good right now or how well they do work at getting their jobs done and serving the community cos everyone is on their backs - world-wide because they've become the focus point.

Just to be clear @Sideways - it was an unlawful killing imo - I wonder if we agree on a lot more than you're prepared to see? :

 

[TruthSeeker]

I don't know how you got that this post I made was a personal attack. I'm talking about the larger conversation about things I hear many white people say. Some here on this thread, many more out in the world. And I wrote my thoughts on those stances. That's it.

Offensive? I'm disagreeing. If disagreeing and expressing it overtly isn't acceptable on this site, then I've been using the wrong criteria for moderating for a loooong time.
No. I'm not going to check my anger on the topic. I'm angry, and it's alright that I'm angry. But it's at a much broader audience, and it's at common ways of thinking, not your person or self.

Certainly, nowhere did I bash your character.

Look - it's a really hard topic. I do get it. But the rules of the site apply to all, equally - even me as an Admin. We don't moderate for tone, it's alright to disagree, it's alright to challenge, and it's a pretty wide latitude for all members when it comes to saying what's on your mind.

I think the biggest thing you and I ( @TruthSeeker and @joeylittle ) disagree on is, the inclusivity concept and seeing skin color. I've gotten to some real clarity for myself around these topics as a result of the events of the last week.

For me - I used to try and believe that skin color didn't matter....but I've always struggled to reconcile the very real context - historic, geopolitical context - that is often attached to skin color. And in my own line of work....race and ethnicity do come into the landscape - very similar to how you @TruthSeeker describe your years as a teacher.

I've come to an understanding that a better goal is to strive to recognize humanity alongside recognizing race and heritage - as opposed to leaving behind race/heritage in order to reach a common humanity. That's why I say that skin color does matter. It's allowed to matter. I think that when we (societal 'we') try and 'ignore' it, we are actually dismissing something that can and should be acknowledged and respected, and celebrated. The impetus behind the not seeing color idea isn't malicious - but a seriously unfortunate by-product of it is, it erases a very real part of a person's identity. Their history.

@joeylittle I agree with your goal above. I am a person without my own family history. I am adopted....so I see this whole thing from a real different perspective-a realization. My skin color is white, but I have no heritage, no story......I don't feel that concept....I have a void where there is no birth story....no family history of my own.

Struggle is needed for change, but struggle comes in many different forms. IMHO we won't get there (equality of races) in our life time (yours and mine) by evolving but I still think that if we look at inclusion as a practice to reduce discrimination and racism....the practice of inclusion is a stepping stone to it's reduction. The front door approach, "You must respect me equally because of my race" can impact changing laws and procedures...but it won't make the hatred less. It won't impact racism at the root....which is people's feelings. The hatred is the problem-and that is on both ends of the racial spectrum. Respect is earned....force won't create respect.

The initial fight Blacks won legally have all been based on equal/ inclusion....and we have made many strides in narrowing the divide but still have a long way to go socially. Our country is young, and real change takes time. But in a world where African Americans have screamed for inclusion, and the law and many whites have taken it to heart and supported the movement, it starts to get really messy when the word "Whites" is attached with discrimination for so many who have supported the movement. Much change has happened.....and I don't see that as acknowledged.

It will take more than decades for the hatred....on both side, to heal. Protests do bring both the issue and the hatred to the front burner, so to speak. It's good to see this has gone global. But I really believe we will only see equality through solidarity-when people of many colors can stand together and fight a common cause-racism/police brutality-all fighting for the same thing, and coming together, realizing what we have in common and that we all fight together, regardless of color-when the skin color matters less than the intolerable and illegal behavior on the part of those in control or those who have power.

When I worked for the Office of Refugee Resettlement, (my most favorite job, Refugee Resettlement Coordinator), of course I saw racial prejudice between Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians.....and each had their country's history-and between the races, there is a great degree of discrimination. Some people need their racism to make them feel good about themselves....and those prejudices are based on fear...yup.....and for some white folks, it's weirdly wrapped up in their heritage. So while we can't cure the sickness called racism, and there is no vaccine to eradicate it, the only way I see to continue moving forward at a more personal level is through solidarity.

 

[Ronin]

I don't think that what he did in the past justifies what happened, but there are a number of reports talking about his background - several arrests and time spend in jail for violent offenses - and folks upset because there's not a lot of reporting on it and everyone seems to be elevating him to the level of a hero.

The only comprehensive link I can find is pretty controversial, so I'm not going to post.

The only somehow supported source I found to that are Wikipedia:Talk page about the killing...

Otherwise lots of quotations by Candace Owens who seems to have been the first person who brought it up, but not actually linked.

I'll keep looking but the same luck as you so far - it's talked *about* but not *cited* well.

Although to how hot a cause it is & that spark to violence, I could understand if the actual records were pulled deliberately or never released and the very mention of them was an oops.

Not close to the issue on that angle to know, any case.

 

[whiteraven]

I'll keep looking but the same luck as you so far - it's talked *about* but not *cited* well.

Several different Texas papers talk about his arrests, but I am not finding actual court docs. And yeah. Candace Owens has an interesting diatribe against the whole thing.

 

[Mee]

I think the previous offences issue is a red herring. The question is if we believe in human rights or not. ‘Even’ criminals have human rights And even during the time they serve their sentence. Once a that’s completed they might just as easily get a duff bank note as you or I . Even were he printing them in his kitchen he has human rights.


It’s the ‘ what was she wearing’ of racism to start bringing past crime into it. Especially considering that it happens that young offenders- Might well be more likely to become young offenders because of the social conditioning of racism AND other issues.


I don’t know about any one else but when I think back to the things I am least proud of doing, saying, etc in life - there was a reason . Not an excuse but a reason . Sometimes the probability of the bad choices was so very much greater than the good choices.

That’s what’s happening in a societal scale - good choices happen - in police forces, in communities, etc etc, but for some people it’s AGAINST a tide and for some it’s against a lighter current

 

[shimmerz]

My skin color is white, but I have no heritage, no story......I don't feel that concept....I have a void where there is no birth story....no family history of my own.

@TruthSeeker, thank you. You have helped me get to something. I have never understood this racial concept. I could never connect with what the big deal about race division was. I believe I understand why I am set apart as well with this. Adoption really changes things. Thank you again for bringing this up.

 

[Ronin]

I'm not seeing it, @Mee.

At least not in this thread.

What the discussion was so far, is looking for a source of statements on history of someone.

No victim blaming comments made or even implied.

So no, it isn't the rape apologia equivalent. In fact it's reaching to read those arguments made... when no one IS making them.

 

[Mee]

I'm not seeing it, @Mee.

At least not in this thread.

What the discussion was so far, is looking for a source of statements on history of someone.

No victim blaming comments made or even implied.

So no, it isn't the rape apologia equivalent. In fact it's reaching to read those arguments made... when no one IS making them.

I disagree. History is not relevant to what happened to him in this incident as a victim.

 

[Ronin]

History is not relevant to what happened to him in this incident as a victim.

History informs reactions of everyone. Included why respond the way anyone responds.

How does history become suddenly irrelevant? Cherry picked? It's not very just to not look at the whole picture.

In fact, insisting the history is not relevant, further obscures any chance of justice, as well as a real dialog - as it's misleading.

It's not blaming the victim to look at their behavior when looking for how & why they have been murdered.

If it is, I've been a victim blaming douchebag for more than a decade, now, and so was everyone in forensics, PI, Law, law enforcement, more, that I happen to know.

To insist it's not relevant, also, treats the person as not a fleshed out person - with real life that was just taken.

But as a legend of them, to suit someone's propaganda of the day.

I'm kind of sick of my people used as a propagandist cannon fodder, already.

 

[Mee]

History informs reactions of everyone. Included why respond the way anyone responds.

How does history become suddenly irrelevant? Cherry picked? It's not very just to not look at the whole picture.

In fact, insisting the history is not relevant, further obscures any chance of justice, as well as a real dialog - as it's misleading.

It's not blaming the victim to look at their behavior when looking for how & why they have been murdered.

If it is, I've been a victim blaming douchebag for more than a decade, now, and so was everyone in forensics, PI, Law, law enforcement, more, that I happen to know.

To insist it's not relevant, also, treats the person as not a fleshed out person - with real life that was just taken.

But as a legend of them, to suit someone's propaganda of the day.

I'm kind of sick of my people used as a propagandist cannon fodder, already.

Ronin that’s not what I am saying and that’s why I gave the parallel context.


History of any criminal record does not give rise to it being in any way ok for a person to be killed by inhuman handling .


I am essentially saying the same as you - that a person is more than their rap sheet. And rap sheet or not people have human rights . That equality is not attained and focusing on ‘ well .... he might have been a wrong ‘un’ denies any human human rights . I can’t get their with people who have been worst in my life to me - and I cannot get their with any victim ( nor perpetrator) because I think the issue is hugely more systemic and built in and that most of us don’t even notice most of our conditioning .


So yes I agree his whole person matters - it matters as him and it matters because it’s a story that - as we see - is impacting people who feel represented by him- I do not believe his criminal record is relevant to whether he was killed unlawfully or not.