Relationship Failing Relationship With My Ptsd/bordeline Gf

[Anarchy]

Thanks for the link @joeylittle !

So that's where Sebern Fisher and Marsha Linehan's friendship goes back to! Wow!

@AzorAhai77 if you lived in Mass. I was going to suggest looking up Sebern Fisher, her neurofeedback experience suggests that the technique may stabilise and regulate the emotional turmoil which underlies BPD. Where DBT teaches acceptance and management of those emotions.

Yep, agreed with the other guys, she's scraping the bottom of the barrel for ways to manipulate you.

There's a strong chance that she will get massive abandonment anxiety. The ex boyfriend stuff may well be as much for her own consumption as it is for yours. My own Personal experience in that area, which may or may not be relevant, was me going away for a few days to get some time to think, and my gf soothed her abandonment fears by shagging the partner of a friend of hers. He wasn't as good as his partner at IT, so she soon found out, and it was messy.

The "not listening" obsession ties in with a central part of one of the theories of BPD, that it develops in response to a chronically invalidating environment.

Good luck with whatever path you follow
@

 

[AzorAhai77]

@Chava I noticed she's getting desperate as well, and that's because I've moved out and it's the end of the month, so if I'm not back there in a few days, the rent doesn't get paid and she's SOL if I'm not there to support her. I do find it interesting she's still trying to manipulate me even to the very end.

@joeylittle I really made an effort to try to get her to see that her disorders are going unchecked and it's affecting the relationships in her life, but she's convinced I'm an idiot who now thinks I have a degree in psychology and therapy. :( I just read that article on Marsha Linehan and found it to be moving and a great read.

@Anarchy My gf isn't that impulsive to sleep with someone due to fear of abandonment, she would rather just blame me for not being there and accusing me of abandoning her like everyone else has. I know I listen to her, just not all the time, and she nitpicks by preying on the fact I'm not perfect and will make mistakes here and there.

So here's the update. As I was getting off work, her mother called and told me she stopped by the house to drop her off some money and to potentially talk with her but got no reply at the door. I told her she left town to look for jobs in another nearby city and I would be at the house in a few minutes if she wanted to come back. I spoke with her mother about the new therapist that is well versed in BPD and PTSD and she agreed to help pay for the sessions if she is willing to go through with it. After we talked briefly, she left the money and was on her way.

I leave and my gf calls later to ask how her mother got in the house. I told her it was obviously I who let her in so she could drop off some money for her daughter. She wanted to know why I came over after work. I told her it was obviously to check up on her as her mom said she didn't get a reply at the door (and she didn't tell me what time she was leaving to look for jobs and figured she'd be done by 7p.m.) She told me I could come over if I wanted to talk. So I go over there and she has a friend from her past she hasn't seen in a while over there visiting her, helping her with stuff I used to help her with. I believe he's helping her because she's told him how depressed she is and he wishes to speak to her about the Quran and purpose of life. I think she wanted me to come over there to make me envious because she was treating him like she used to treat me in the beginning. We all end up in the living room (an hour or two later) and then she starts talking about how her friend listens to her and is so engaging and how that's how she feels like she's being payed attention to. The truth is I do the exact same thing, which she fails to realize. Her friend has the advantage of not having made a mistake yet. Anyways, she starts revealing all our problems to her friend and at one point he asks me to tell him my side of the story about a particular situation. I start to tell him my side, and in a sudden rage she starts perpetually interrupting me every mid-sentence branding me a liar, saying she hates me and how dare I lie to her friend. She told him to go back into the other room with her and finish helping her with the work she has going on that requires heavy lifting.

Her friend eventually leaves after she completes her work. And she calls her uncle/relative who's a counselor/therapist in California. We've talked all together before via phone and he seemed unbiased but tonight seemed different. At first, she relayed to him how much of an idiot I look like telling her she needs the right help when she's been getting help all her life for her disorders. He responded by telling me I can't truly know what's really wrong with her and I can't know how to fix it. He told me what we do know is how she feels and listening to her is the best shot at fixing the issue. I told him I understood that but what about what she can do for me? We both need to be 100% committed. He mentioned something about the woman being a queen and because I'm the king, it's my responsibility to give the queen what she needs. He also mentioned I should be giving 500% and should be giving much more than she's giving because I'm the man and I need to stand up for the person I love. I told them both I have a problem with this way of thinking because I consider both of us equal, therefore an equal amount of effort should be made. It seemed like he took her position on everything. I guess since I'm a male, my feelings don't count, so I just gotta man up and give everything while I receive nothing in hopes that she starts to give as I give her what she needs. Anyone have a comment on this method of thinking?

Also keep in mind, it was 3.a.m after we finished and I tried to sleep on the couch afterward, but she wouldn't let me sleep. She insisted on throwing insults, verbal jabs and the whole nine. She even got me caught up in arguing until about 5.a.m when I told her she knows I have to work, so do me the common courtesy of letting me rest. Then she claimed it doesn't make her feel good that I can go to sleep while she's up depressed and not sleeping. She's angry at the fact I can go to sleep while she can't. I told her I work and I've been up all night; I need sleep. I ended up leaving to sleep at my mother's house because she wouldn't let me sleep and threatened to kick me off her couch. This woman is becoming incredibly difficult to deal with, but it's so difficult for me to get up and walk away. I love what we had and want it back so bad. I'm tempted to not speak with her until the last day of the month to see where her head is.

 

[Chava]

Still more manipulation and sad how she has to use people but probably feeling constantly lonely. You've done a good job doing what you can but hopefully she can get some professional help and you can feel okay having boundaries with her and not being sucked in.

 

[Update]

So at the end of the month I decided to move back in to give it another shot. The main reason was because she started talking to her mother and brother again and found a part-time job, which started to lift her spirits. Through that, I started feeling better as well though I still can't look at her the same way I used to. I love her, but it's a distant love because I feel like I can't get close to her no matter the amount of effort. Everything has been good for about a week as we both recover from what we've been through. Her attitude has changed because she has a job now and can't focus on depression and our relationship all the time anymore.

The problem, now, is she's always accusing me of arguing with her. I assisted her with a task and she starts accusing me of doing something that I didn't do. I have a right to defend myself, and stated I didn't do what she thought I did. Then she accuses me of lying because she said she saw me do it. Her friend was present and told me what she wants is for me not to get defensive and to just do what she wants because she has more knowledge on what we're doing. I can understand where he's coming from, but that doesn't make it right. Of course that's the right thing to do in order to please her, but is it right to be a door mat and accept responsibility for doing something I didn't do?

The fact I defended myself irritated her so much that she told me she didn't want my help until I can acknowledge what I did. She manipulated me into entertaining the idea that I might have done something wrong since my technique was incorrect. I apologized and asked her to show me how to do it right, but she said no. I only did that because I really wanted to help her and she told me what I could do to solve the issue. So I do it and she still denied me redemption and made me feel wretched, which is indicative of her vindictive ways. After her friend left, she started talking "If I had a gun, I'd shoot myself...". Why does she want to kill herself? Because we had a disagreement? She also stated "What you did is a perfect example of why we're just roommates", further showing how just her being angry at me is enough to call off our relationship to where she refers to us as just "roommates". I had no energy to reply to her continuous accusations. Surprisingly, I got 6 hours of sleep last night and can really feel it today even though I feel like there's a dark rain cloud hovering over me. I feel so tired and unhealthy right now. The person I love has PTSD and BPD and wants to love me back but can't. With this having been my first real relationship (and a disaster of one I might add), I'm convinced I'm becoming as broken as her. If all relationships are as hard as this then I am doomed for unhappiness. How do supporters fight the depression and stress that comes with attempting to co-exist with the sufferer? At this point, leaving is definitely an option even though I'm forever torn about leaving her behind. The thought of it turns my stomach but I feel like with all I'm giving, the lack of what she's giving back is destroying me emotionally.

 

[AzorAhai77]

So I decided to move back in at the end of the month to give it one last shot. By this time, she had started talking to her mother and brother again as well as getting a part-time job, which has lifted her spirits a great deal. Through that, I started to feel better and hope started to creep in like the rising sun. Even though I felt less tense about the situation, I still can't look at her the same way I used to. I love her, but it's a distant love as I feel I can't get as close as I want to her no matter the effort.

For the past week, everything has been fine, but last night, her friend and I were assisting her with a task outside. Everything is fine until she starts accusing me of doing something wrong. I was pretty focused and know I didn't do what she accused me of. She tells me she saw me do it and blames me for arguing with her. Her friend commented on the situation and mentioned to me she wants me to not get defensive about it and trust she knows what she knows because she has more knowledge about what we're doing. I understand that, but I feel like I have a right to defend myself when I'm being accused of doing something I didn't do. Am I wrong for not accepting responsibility for something I didn't do?

She manipulated me into entertaining the thought that I might have done something wrong as my technique wasn't entirely correct. She was so irritated by the fact I defended myself she told me she didn't want my help until I acknowledge what I did. I really wanted to help her, so I told her it is possible I could have done something wrong even though I didn't see it. I then asked her to show me the correct way to do it so I can be helpful. She told me no because I should have just done that from the beginning. I felt betrayed because she told me exactly what I could do to make the situation better, and she denied me redemption after I did what she told me to do, which is indicative of her vindictive ways.

After her friend leaves, she starts talking like "If I had a gun, I'd definitely shoot myself...". Why does she want to kill herself? Because she accused me of something and I defended myself? She also said "What you just did is exactly why we're just roommates. Now I know never to cross that line again", further displaying how just her being angry at me is enough for her to call off the status of our relationship by referring to us as just "roommates". Needless to say, I hadn't the energy to reply to her further accusations. Luckily, not too long afterwards she went upstairs to go to sleep while I slept on the couch. I was able to obtain about 6 precious hours of sleep, much to my benefit.

But today I feel like a black rain cloud is hovering over me. I feel so emotionally distraught and unhealthy by all of this. With all that I'm giving and the minuscule amount she's giving back, I'm being gradually devoured emotionally to the point where leaving is definitely an option though the thought of leaving her turns my stomach. How are some of you supporters dealing with the recoil of depression and stress when attempting to co-exist with your sufferer?

 

[Anarchy]

Hi Azor,
Sorry that she is messing with your reality
I don't want to assume that she does it with vindictive intentions, she probably does feel disrespected, even if that feeling is not supported by anything that anyone else saw or heard.

To have reached her current state, she must have been interacting with a pretty effed up and invalidating environment as she grew up. Big emphasis on interacting. Linehan's bio_social conception of BPD, is that it is the outcome of a transactional process between the person and a chronically invalidating environment. There is no single culprit to attach blame to.

As a result she probably sees the world through some very weird filters. The people who I've known who showed borderline traits, could sometimes add several steps to what had actually happened, and then react to the steps which existed only in their imagination ( chances are that they had plenty of experience of those steps happening in the past, so they had very good reason for expecting things to happen that way again).

Though past experiences and distorted cognitive filters might explain what is happening, they do not excuse the way she is treating you.

Her emotional disregulation can easily end up disregulating you too. What you described comes under the heading of "gas lighting", messing with and denying your reality.

Even if her friends and family have been trained by her to just go along with it in order to avoid facing her rages and threats of suicide if she doesn't get her own way... There is no reason for you to get caught up in it.

There are tactics for forcing a de escalation, I'm not practiced at them, and personally I would retreat rather than try them ( Just remember that she is a grown woman and responsible for her own actions and reactions).

One of the techniques in outline, goes as follows:
She, wants something, and reinforces the request with a threat of sh or suicide.
You pick up on the threat of suicide, and ask if you should take her to the ER, you do not acknowle the main request.
You keep on that line, offering to drive her there, when she refuses,offer to call an ambulance...
The idea(i repeat,I wouldn't have the experience or guts to try it), is that she de escalates and has to rephrase her request and needs in a less emotive and dramatic manner, and her threat of suicide results in an aversive,rather than a reinforcing outcome.

I'll repeat, that DBT is intended to be provided by a team of therapists, as the clients and their behaviours are too much for a lone therapist to endure without becoming judgemental, or just plain burned out. That is with trained professionals!

You have a duty to yourself. If she is getting too much, withdraw before you get disregulated yourself.

Good luck, and please keep in touch.
@


Ps, most of your replies so far have been from people who have PTSD.

 

[The Albatross]

Personal low threshold for boarderlines. Very empathetic that you are navigating these situations. Anarchy is astute in the reply.

 

[Anarchy]

Personal low threshold for boarderlines.

Thanks for the kind words Alby :hug:

Not long after I split up with a woman who has some BPD traits, I was introduced to a woman my age, who's marriage had recently ended. Mid way through the evening, my borderline alarm went off. There was just a tiny flash of abandonment anxiety and associated rage. Just half a second before she regained her composure.

I wasn't ready for drama, and I don't think she was particularly taken with me either. We chatted but didn't keep in contact.

A friend who's a bit older than me, later gave me some background.

Friend had grown up as a neighbour of the woman's father,and later worked for him. Apparently the father is alcoholic, the marriage broke up when the daughter was about 7, and the mother made it clear that she didn't want the child...

Absolutely heart breaking, but forty whatever years on, I wasn't in the right sort of mindspace to build a friendship and perhaps more, with another badly damaged middle aged little girl.

Their abandonment desperately needs healing, but so few are capable of not repeating their experience of abandonment yet again.

Rejection and avoidance is an inescapable lesser evil for most of, when we're confronted by someone showing borderline traits.

Incidentally, I have a neighbour, who has genetically identical twin daughters who are roughly my age. One has borderline traits, the other doesn't. He's a nice bloke, I never met the girls mother to know what she is like... Same nature same nurture, different outcomes.

 

[AzorAhai77]

Hey all, here's an update of what's transpired since then and it seems like it's reached an unfortunate end.


Past couple months have been a mix of good and bad. For the record, she is a legal marijuana caregiver and patient, so the work she does down in the basement is cultivation. Her, me, and her friend had been doing good for about a month while she was also doing her job as a waitress at a gentlemen's club. At this point, I was still trying to win her affection by proving to be a good listener and doing many favors for her like helping her get ready for work, starting her car, helping her pay her expenses, etc. One day I got sick with something I ate and told her I couldn't go down in the basement to help her that night. Her friend couldn't make it on that day and she asked her foster Brother to help instead. I even compromised with her and went down there to do a little work anyway, but I went back upstairs to rest. She comes back upstairs for a break and asks me to go to the bathroom with her to talk. There she tells me she's tired of our relationship and how I'm going to have to work much more harder to satisfy her. I told her we haven't been arguing much, so things were improving. She said they weren't, and she's not arguing because she's starting not to care.


I go back downstairs to the living room. Her foster brother is sleeping on the couch and I was dosing off. They must have went back downstairs to finish up because she woke me up later in the night when she was finished. At this point, I'm sleeping on the couch because she doesn't want to sleep with me. Instead of letting me sleep, she keeps waking me up to ask unimportant questions. I start to notice this and ask her to let me sleep because I have to work in a few hours. She mentioned I don't care about anything she says and I quickly yell back at her she doesn't care about me because she knows I have to work and she won't let me sleep. After yelling that, she says "Get off my couch!" I get up and I hear her say "I didn't say you couldn't sleep on the bed". I didn't go upstairs to sleep on her bed though because I was angry at her. Instead, I slept on the floor in the other room. The next day she had to work at night and I remember her telling me I could at least sleep on the bed if I can't be on her couch. So I made the worst decision of sleeping in the bed. When she got home, she was livid. I told her she said "I didn't say you couldn't sleep in the bed" but it turned out she said "I didn't say you could sleep in the bed" thinking I was going to sleep in her bed the night she told me to get off her couch. This grave misunderstanding had her angry and depressed for about a week. The next time I helped her in the basement (with her friend there) successfully, I seemed to make up for it because she said you could sleep in the bed tonight, but let's not make *this a habit. I mistakenly took this as her meaning don't make a habit of arguing and getting involved with conflict that would cause me not to be able to sleep with her. She ended up meaning I could only sleep in her bed that one time. Not knowing this, I slept in her bed every night afterward and noticed when I woke up she wasn't there. She would go to bed right after I got up and ready for work.


At some point is seemed like she wasn't actually working anymore. I didn't know for sure, but after Labor Day, I don't think she ever went back. Instead, she was certainly spending her time somewhere else. Then I got the word that her grandfather had gotten ill and was in the hospital. The next time it was time to work in the basement she told me I could help but don't get used to it. So I started helping and she yells at me saying she meant I could only help move that one bucket. I dropped the dustpan and went upstairs as she was yelling, partly because I was angry but more importantly to get out of this conflict. She followed me upstairs to tell me she's done with me and made every sort of effort to disrespect me in front of her friend. I demanded she stop disrespecting me, especially in front of her friend. We didn't speak to each other that night. The next day, I tried to talk to her about it but that was when she said she don't love me anymore. I took that exactly for what it was and accepted our breakup. We are both on the lease, so I chose not to move out because I want her to leave. For the past couple weeks she has been mediating between our city and Berrien Sprigns where her grandfather is ill, only coming back to our house to do work in the basement with her friend. We didn't talk at all for one whole week. She did ask me a lot of favors, though. And being I was still in love with her, I did all the small favors she asked not because I loved her, but because her grandfather was getting worse. During this time, I was also facing health problems from two of my uncles who were in ICU for different reasons, but they turned out okay.


During this one week of avoiding her, I noticed whenever she and her friend showed up to do work, she would leave with him to get something to eat beforehand. I noticed they were starting to spend more time together outside of the work they were doing, but was convinced she was just showing her appreciation for him helping her in the basement. This Monday morning she arrives back home from Berrien Springs to do work, only this time the friend isn't here. I tried to talk to her about us and apologized for any wrong things I have done to her, but reminded her of all the things I have done for her. I demanded for her to let me help her in the basement as it's faster and more convenient for everyone. She was completely negative and told me I'm the one who told her I was okay for having some other guy help her in the basement. I told her she took that out of context. I actually said if I give my best effort down there and you aren't satisfied, it's best to have someone help you down here that will satisfy your expectations. It quickly became apparent that helping her grow plants in the basement was a deal breaker as far as the whole relationship was concerned. We got nowhere. At one point she goes outside and I get a quick look at her phone which mentioned to her friend and saw an "I love you". Didn't think too much of it as she usually says "I love you" to her friends. I ended up going to work yesterday morning. At work, I get a reply from my ex telling me she's heading back out of town to Berrien Srpings to prepare for the funeral for her grandfather (he did 2 days prior) and asked if I could help spray a particular plant once every day. Curious at work, I decided to text her friend and ask him if she was just friends with my ex or if they were advancing toward something else. I needed to know because I'm still in love with her and want her back, but want to move on if she's pursuing him. Keep in mind, a few days back my ex told her foster brother (who I'm really good friends with) there was nothing going on between her and her friend. Besides, he's married to one of my ex's girlfriends from college. His reply was "I think it's best for you to wait and have her answer those questions". I then reply "Are you married?" to confirm if he was married. He honestly replies with "Yeah." This all happened yesterday. This morning, I get a reply from my ex saying "It's to the point where I gotta say f*** you".


I know at this point there's absolutely nothing I can do for her and I definitely need to rid myself of her from my life completely. She has been taking advantage of my kindness because she knows I love her. It seems as though she’s either using me as backup or to keep me here for financial support. I feel so used my love for her is quickly turning into resentment for even choosing to get involved with her. I was pondering moving or staying and asking her to leave. Staying is the best option financially, but not for my healing. I accepted her for all her problems at the beginning. In the end, she has expectations that maybe no one will ever meet but ultimately she never accepted me for who I am, which is a nice, loving caring person who only wanted to give her the world. I also can't help but think the potential affair that may arise from her and her "friend". This woman has lots of issues, ptsd and borderline personality disorder being among them, but I would have loved to be by her side through it all. Looks like she’s too far gone.

 

[Anarchy]

Hi Azor.

Thanks for the update, and sorry that it has come to this.

When you mention "married", I take that you mean in the sense of having said the marriage prayers together?

Now to disentangle yourself.

Don't know about you, but I find places can trigger memories and keep the feelings of loss and disappointment going.

Will her new partner buy out your portion of the lease? Will she buy you out?
Up to you how much pressure you apply, but there is certainly a potential argument that she has kept her new relationship quiet so she could make use of you, and the very least she owes you now is to wind up your joint obligations.

Can't remember whether I shared this with you: Link Removed
Ignore the word alcohol, its application is much wider than that. It is an introduction to repairing the boundaries which she has damaged.

Good luck with rebuilding your circle of friends and the things that you used to enjoy before you got involved, and if possible, use this as an opportunity to do some things which you have always wanted to.

You have given it your best, and gone far further than most people would ever go.

Keep in touch here.
@

 

[Anarchy]

I forgot to add that my ex used to give me grief if I was having an early start the next morning and needed to get some sleep. All to often it resulted in a 2AM "We need to Talk" .

It's a standing joke amongst guys who follow sport (I don't), that ten minutes before a big game is about to start, their partner demands a five hour, deep and meaningful (and painful) state of the relationship discussion

I think it triggered deep feelings of being abandoned, or of being second best. She was well able to understand in her rational brain that there was no Her v Job dichotomy. in her emotional brain though, perhaps not.

 

[AzorAhai77]

@Anarchy Well it turns out the guy is married, but not legally married. That means he's agreed to be married to his wife, but they haven't obtained a marriage license yet.

I agree. It's difficult not to think about her when I'm sitting in our living room alone wondering where she is. As time goes by, it's getting easier though. I'm realizing I deserve a better woman and perhaps I settled for her because I genuinely loved her and was content with the possibility of spending the rest of my life with her. The problem is she doesn't love herself, so she's incapable of loving someone back.

I will look into this detachment thing. Thanks!

You're right, I want to focus on making her regret she gave up on me. Not for any bad reasons, but to let her one day realize I was a great person who loved her enough to want to be there for her while she continued to fear being abandoned. The one thing I can't get out of my head was when I promised her I wouldn't abandon her like the boyfriends of her past. I guess that promise is forfeit if she ended up abandoning instead.

I think that's true. My ex always would always demand my attention when I was preoccupied with something else, which always put me at a disadvantage with her because the transition from what I was focused on to focusing on her wasn't always the smoothest and she would ultimately label me a terrible listener or say I'm always ignoring her.


UPDATE: I ended up texting back to her friend I didn't want him to come to our house anymore as the whole situation seemed sneaky and both of them have disrespected me by not letting me know what was going on between them. Minutes later my ex started calling me non-stop but I didn't respond because she's supposed to come back tonight and I'd rather talk to her in person. I wonder if she will bring her friend with her anyway. It matters not, because he's not coming back into my house. I refuse to be disrespected any further than I already have and standing up to her in this manner is my last chance to let her know she can't always have her cake and eat it, too. Good people are not to be used as doormats.