Forgivness - Best Interest or Not?

[Vapor]

Another post got me thinking on this. And i was going to write this on that post, but i decided to start it as a seperate topic.

Lately Ive been thinking alot about forgivness. So I started with defining it .. and looking it up in various places.

The most common definition I got for forgivness was "to excuse"

Im sure that the forgivness idea comes from a religious background.. which puts me off straight away, but I do realize there are still some posatives on a PERSONAL basis perhaps if you forgive a person.

A person who forgives another, may be less hurt eventually, less angry and less bitter...but lets look at this idea further.

Since forgivness means .. to exucse... I wonder what would happen on a global level if everyone were to embrace this.

You cannot say ,,, i excuse/forgive you .. but yeah .. im going to punish you in prison for the rest of your life anyway .. because.. that is not excusing the person....

So..if the whole world did indeed embrace this.. there would be no law. Totally anarchy would break out... we would be reinforcing on these people .. that its actually ok to murder and steal and rape .. because.. we will excuse/forgive you anyway.

This is why dont do religion. Its fine on a personal basis but when it tries to push itself into our education system and morality .. morality goes out teh window. I have to think of .. what is better for the human race and mankind itself. I hold very high morals.

I guess the only way you would be able to disagree with what I have written would be to ...argue about semantics.. and what the definition of forgivness is.

I often encouter people (paticulary religious ones) who try to manipulate the meaning of words.. so just a warning in advance.. its not something I reply to.

For example. Religion means .. a belief in a supernatural being/higher power/God... a set of beleifs based around a diety. yet consatntly christians go around and say what they have is not a religion. Then they have hte audasity to turn around and call atheism a religion.... again .. a attempt to maniulate the meaning of words.

So i just wanted to make a point.

Some things should not be forgivable. It is in mankinds best interest.

 

[FlameTachiku]

Hi Vapor,

I have also put a lot of thought into this. I am not ever likely to jump on the forgiveness bandwagon. I am sooo glad that it helps some people, like the belief in God gives some people strength and hope. It is truely wonderful that some find at least some relief in this way.

I watched a person hurt so many people, terrorize, threaten, change the direction of others lives without an appearence of regret or responsibliy. I truely do not remember all. I only remember remembering and being non-fuctional. I have relief that he has died and I know he will not be around a corner, in a town, at a hospital, and that makes me feel safe. Not just for myself but for those that sadly fell in his path.

Forgiveness. Well maybe he was sick in personality. I don't know. Tried to avoid him.

I guess for me I don't want to feel, can't feel, don't feel the need to forgive as he would not ever believe he acted in a way that would need forgiveness. He would never therefore have benefited from my foregiveness or anyone elses. For my benefit I could give forgiveness out of guilt that good people forgive, but I :think:would feel like an idiot as it seems like a ridiculous thing for me to do.

The best I can do is not live with hate, or tear myself down for not being more or doing more than I can. I try to be a good person but to forgive this....I don't think so.

Tachiku

 

[2quilt]

I agree with you that religion is not for everyone; it is certainly not for me. I get annoyed by people to demand that I 'forgive' those who have abused me. It is easy for someone who has not been abused to tell me how to feel. Even if that demanding person has been through something similar to my experience and claims to have 'forgiven' the perpetrator, I choose not to. I say, good for them, but I can't do it myself, and that does not make me lower quality than the forgiver.

Accidental harm, I can forgive, if the person that did it is sincerely remorseful.
But the abuse i have survived was intentional and long, over time, and I can't forgive that ever. I have never asked another person to forgive their abuser because that is a very personal choice that I would not want anyone to press upon me. I think that gets into religious talk, which I can't stand. I do not believe that one person should prosthelitize or evangelize religion to another.

Semantics do come into this big time.

I have been told that holding grudges is bad, but then I refer the speaker to the criminal justice system, which is holding more than they claim to be able to manage. I can do my own form of criminal justice by banning certain people from my life. If the speaker wants to call me a grudge-holder, let him. I don't know anyone who has no enemies.

I can't separate the concept of 'forgiveness' from the religious smell.

 

[Ace Ventura]

Forgiveness---excusing?

I thought it was interesting that forgiveness was defined as "excusing," although I can see that it is often used that way. The concept of forgiveness I have encountered absolutely does not excuse the wrong or say that what happened was "all right." Forgiveness does not mean that the perpetrator will escape negative consequences as a result of his or her action.

In popular culture, I think that forgiveness is sometimes presented as this really warm, fuzzy feeling that makes everyone involved all better, or this simple fix that will make the problem go away, as if it never happened. Maybe for some people (especially those who haven't suffered inflicted trauma), advocating this "easy" forgiveness is a way to get wronged people to stop talking about trauma and pain because those aren't "pretty" or "pleasant" sides of reality.

I realize that certain words become infused with many different definitions in popular usage and that not all of these definitions are accurate. I'm just suggesting that forgiveness, like many other intangibles, lends itself to much reflection, and subsequently to complex and variable meanings among different people and groups.

In light of this, I cannot speak for anyone else. Personally, however, if the question were "Should the behavior of the perpetrators be excused?", I would have to say "Absolutely not."

Ace

 

[redtriskell]

Nicely put, Ace. I would say more, but you hit the nail on the head from my perspective. I do not now, nor have I ever, believed that forgiveness was necessary to moving forward. Which is what a large number of people seem to think. That forgiveness is for me, so I can "let go" (loathsome phrase). Rubbish. I have moved forward, and I will always tend the flame of wrath in my secret heart for what was done to me. It keeps me warm. It also gives me strength and power. Rage is a wonderful battery for all the hard things I have to do. Thanks for this topic, Vapor. Nice to know I'm not the only one who believes that some things are unforgivable. Period. red

 

[nic]

I STRONGLY urge all of you to read The Sunflower by Simon Wiesenthal. (name may be spelled wrong) It's a true story, based upon this very issue.

 

[Deleted member 541]

Ace,

My trauma WAS inflicted upon me, by both of my brothers, my mother, grandmother and I was gang raped in my teens. I have been beaten, molested, raped, abused verbally, emotionally, and physically.

I take offense with your statement.......Maybe for some people (especially those who haven't suffered inflicted trauma), advocating this "easy" forgiveness is a way to get wronged people to stop talking about trauma and pain because those aren't "pretty" or "pleasant" sides of reality.

I learned to forgive for ME!!!!!! The anger that I had was doing nothing but eating at me, not allowing me to move forward, holding me in an angry, hateful, foul, way of life. I had to grow up and be responsible for myself, and to learn how to be healthy. Being angry didn't allow me that....

What do you get out of being angry????? All you do is focus all of your energy on your perpetrators, and how to be revengeful.

To be honest I personally think that as long as you hold onto the anger and hatred, it's just another way to avoid looking at your trauma and yourself. JMO as I did the very thing for years.............

 

[Seeking_Nirvana]

Everyone is different in their belief system. Some choose to forgive and other's don't. I really don't care if someone forgives or not. What ever works for them, is their truth.

I used to want everyone to love their parents, but I got over that real quick after starting a thread here. I decided not to impose my beliefs on others just because they work for me. However, if I have some information that I might think will help someone I will share it because my goal is to help others, but I usually expect a debate and that's OK.

Just my 2 cents
Tammy

 

[linasmom]

I think it is important to distinguish between "letting go of anger" and "forgiving". They are two different things. And like this thread originally stated - it's all in the way you choose to interpret the meaning of to "forgive". I go by dictionary standards and I follow it very literally. I won't forgive (as I've stated time and time again) but hopefully I can let go of the anger.

I think it's called "coming to peace" with a situation. Coming to peace with something does not mean, at least in my mind, forgiving a perp - it simply means coming to peace within yourself about what happened. I don't include the concept of forgiveness in any of my therapeutic goals.



Best,
Rachel

 

[FlameTachiku]

Rachel,

Thank you so much for your perspective and wording. I stuggle at times to find words for the emotions that I experience. You are right on (for me) and it is comforting coming from someone else.

Tachiku

 

[ladybug08]

To forgive...I think that depends upon the person and the circumstances. I can forgive, but I will not forget!!!.