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[Neverthesame]

Discussion is fine in my books. Even radical discussion of what radical action, can be used to deal with radicals.

Even if I may find what the person on the other side of the issue is arguing, to be offensive. That's fine. No one agrees with 100% of the people, 100% of the time. Thus is life.

What frightens me, is the conversation I had with a coworker yesterday.

This young guy approached me to ask if I had an input on the attempted coup d'état in Turkey.

He then proceeded to back up his claims of why he believed that the rampant immigration of people from the middle east, was a terrible thing.

Here's a couple of gems from our little chat.

"Look at Germany. All of these so called refugees are showing up in Germany, with nicer clothes than we have, and newer phones." (As he poked at his Galaxy S7).

"And what is the German prime minister doing about all the rampant crimes?" (None of which he could name, nor the names or specific countries the immigrant refugees came from, that committed these heinous crimes.)

Oh, but it gets so much better.

"Did you know, that there are as many curry restaurants as there are fish and chips places in London?"

Yup. He actually said that with a straight face. As though it were a national crisis in the UK.

The horrid perversion, of the only food he could think of, that was associated with Britain.

The look on his face, when I told him that. "Fish and chips and curry, has become one of the most popular dishes in London. The reason there is a curry being cooked alongside the fish and chips, is because they are going to be served on the same sodding plate. Having to travel PAST the middle east, to get an Indian curry, is pretty bloody inconvenient, wouldn't you think?"

"Maybe, just maybe. The reason for this abundance of foreign food being sold in the UK, is because people of all genders races and nationality, want to eat it!!"

This is what scares me. It's not the person with a strong opinion. But the fools who jump on the hatred bandwagon, and go far beyond what the discussion was about.

I'm not saying anyone here has done that, but it is so easy to do. When the civility breaks down, the fools can come out of the woodwork, unopposed.

I have more to add, but I am going to take a little break for a couple of hours.

 

[The Albatross]

A little short on articulation yourself... wazzamatta... comparing 70 Westboro weirdos to an estimated 20% of members of Islam bothering you. I think it should when you're talking large frigging numbers.

Ga ahead conflate the issue. It doesn't do a damn thing except keep your head buried in the sand.

 

[joeylittle]

Context, @The Albatross. Just asking for context. You're right, sources can be hard to come by. I brought up Westboro as an example of a US-against-US hate group, only as that; read a little closer and you'll see it.

Not interested in taking the bait you're throwing out. So, keep on with whatever opinions you've got. The only reason I'm not hammering the other side is that it's mostly @Justmehere and they are being clear on context and opinion.

Bowing out, again. You have more personal beef with me, use PM, please.

 

[Dana1010]

Here's a couple of gems from our little chat.

"Look at Germany. All of these so called refugees are showing up in Germany, with nicer clothes than we have, and newer phones." (As he poked at his Galaxy S7).

That seems to me a valid point he made. First of all, the journey is expensive -- where are they getting the money? Secondly, they are mostly able bodied young men -- where are the women and children? They left them there to deal with whatever this supposed crisis is?

"And what is the German prime minister doing about all the rampant crimes?" (None of which he could name, nor the names or specific countries the immigrant refugees came from, that committed these heinous crimes.)

All the furor about citations on this thread. Since when do you need a cite for something that is basically common knowledge thanks to daily news reports? Did you know that Sweden is now the rape capital of the world, and that Muslim immigration is entirely to blame? The North African immigrants are 23 times more likely to be perpetrators than native Swedes.

"Did you know, that there are as many curry restaurants as there are fish and chips places in London?"

What he's trying to say is that a nation with an extremely long and rich history is losing its character, and he's saddened by it. What if you went to visit Palestine and saw a bunch of fish and chips places everywhere?

 

[Neverthesame]

where are they getting the money?

The government of the country that accepted them. I'm not thrilled about that, but if the role was reversed. Can you imagine running for your life from people looking to ethnically cleanse you, get to the airport, try to get a ticket and realise you forgot your wallet on the nightstand.

Sentenced to death for being absent minded. Or worse maybe, from being $20 short of the ticket price.

where are the women and children?

I can't put them here because of the media policy, but I found lots of pictures of women and children refugees.
Oddly, I was however unable to find a photo of a Syrian in an Armani suit.

Since when do you need a cite for something that is basically common knowledge

This was said more to point out that my coworker was raving on about the German governments incompetence in this situation (which they do definitely need to work on) and the mistakes he felt the leader of the government was making. Germany does not have a prime minister. During our chat I pretended not to know which one applied to that government, then outright asked him. He said prime minister. Not president or chancellor.
(I know it's petty semantics, but it was kind of funny.)

If what you said about Sweden is in fact true, then It is even more important that we must find a way to ensure the safety of the women in that country. Though just kicking out all the refugees is not going to make rape go away. At best, that would simply bring the frequency of rape occuring to Swedish women to where it was before this whole thing started. Back to a level in which most people just ignored entirely.

(This is strictly my opinion) Irregardless of who is actually doing the raping. Would it not be better to attack this issue now, while the world still sees this influx rape as a huge horrifying problem. Before it settles into normalcy and no one cares anymore?
I think 1 rape anywhere, is a horrifying problem. Just as I'm sure everyone here, does as well. Rape just needs to stop, period.

What he's trying to say is that a nation with an extremely long and rich history is losing its character,

He is free to feel that way, all he likes. Though I don't really understand why. The rich history of the British Isles, is a testament to repeated extreme change to it's culture. In the last 1700 ~ or so years. That little island has been invaded, conquered and ruled by several vastly different cultures. Roman, Celtic, Scandinavian Vikings, to name a few.

Coworker, is not from the UK, has no family living there, no ties to it what so ever. If he likes it for the sake of liking it, cool. But he's not defending his homeland.
Also, the curry is optional. ;)

There are always lots of McDonalds and Starbucks. If you don't want fish or curry. Those things are bloody everywhere. No matter where in the whole country you travel, you will not be able to avoid seeing and smelling that horribly bad for you American fast food chain, with it's tacky big glowing M..... Wait a minute...... Wasn't I just saying.... :p (Sorry, couldn't help it.) This paragraph, was strictly in jest. I'm not trying to make you look bad or talk down to you. If I didn't respect your intelligence, I wouldn't have taken the time to reply to you.

What if you went to visit Palestine and saw a bunch of fish and chips places everywhere?

Sorry, but this one I'm having a bit of trouble answering. As I'm not sure what specifically you are asking.

I'll take my best guess.
Why Palestine?
Did you get my shared background info mixed up with someone else's? No worries if you did.
I'm not Palestinian, nor do I follow Islam. I'm a Catholic who grew up in northern England.

To answer your question. Would I be happy if I ran into a fish and chips place. Whilst taking a vacation in Palestine?

Honestly, yes.

I don't like the taste of curry, or hummus. I also get wicked bad heartburn fairly regularly. Spicy food becomes a no-no in that scenario. Having something handy I know I can eat, is a good thing. At least it is to me.

 

[Dana1010]

The government of the country that accepted them. I'm not thrilled about that, but if the role was reversed. Can you imagine running for your life from people looking to ethnically cleanse you, get to the airport, try to get a ticket and realise you forgot your wallet on the nightstand.

This just shows you're taking the main stream media's story at face value. You need to do look into alternative news sources rather than just swallow what the controlled media throws at you.

Would it not be better to attack this issue now, while the world still sees this influx rape as a huge horrifying problem. Before it settles into normalcy and no one cares anymore?

An influx of rape? Is rape some mysterious airborne element like ether that wafts invisibly around the world? Or is rape something people do? It's not an influx of rape, it's an influx of rapists.

That little island has been invaded, conquered and ruled by several vastly different cultures. Roman, Celtic, Scandinavian Vikings, to name a few.

Vastly different?

Why Palestine?

It was just a random Middle Eastern region I thought of.

I'm not Palestinian, nor do I follow Islam. I'm a Catholic who grew up in northern England.

You sure are quick to point this out. I wonder why. ;)

 

[Neverthesame]

You sure are quick to point this out. I wonder why.

I explained why.

Did you get my shared background info mixed up with someone else's?

That's why.
I hope you are not inferring that I am somehow worried someone may mistake me for being a non-white, non-Christian?

I don't care what colour anyone is. Or by what name they call God, if they bother calling him anything. We're all people, deserving of love and respect.

Wasn't really expecting you to ask if I would feel threatened by a foreign food, appearing in a country that has nothing to do with me.

 

[cherryblossom]

Wow! just wow! I read the thread title, and thought I'd have a read, but honestly I'm shocked by some of the comments here, and some of directions this thread has taken.

What happened in Nice is truly shocking, deaths of civilians in the name of politics or religion anywhere in the world is shocking. Just innocent people going about their daily lives, and their worlds are completely torn apart. I agree that there are atrocities going on all over the world, that aren't given much coverage by western press, but as an average citizen, I can only react to what is reported upon. I don't go trawling the world's press to read about tradegies, but some things get focused upon, depending on where in the world you live.

As a retired paramedic, I also want to mention the emergency services all over the world, who have to try to deal with the aftermath of attending such horrific scenes of death and destruction. I simply can't begin to imagine how horrific that scene was, with so many dead and injured.

I think it's massively important not to tar everyone with the same brush. The majority of people, regardless of colour, religion, political beliefs, just want to live a happy and peaceful life. They want to go to work, and provide for their families, and have some fun along the way.

From the reports I've seen, the attacker in Nice was a Muslim, but was not known to French intelligence services to have signs of radicalisation, although there are reports of rapid radicalisation. He also did not seem overtly religious. Locals said he was often seen drinking beer and never attended the small mosque near his block of flats. His father was concerned about his psychotic behaviour, and he'd been thrown out of the family home after allegedly beating up his wife.

Now, to be honest, I'm struggling to see what his religion has to do with it... except as an excuse / reason for his behaviour. So-called Islamic State said Lahouaiej-Bouhlel was acting in response to its calls to target civilians in countries that are part of the anti-IS coalition.

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36801671
'Officials said it bore the hallmark of a terrorist organisation.
President Hollande said on Friday that it was "an attack whose terrorist nature cannot be denied".

Mr Molins said the attack was "in line with the constant calls to kill" from militant Islamist groups, and the investigation would be seek to find out whether Lahouaiej-Bouhlel had ties to Islamist militants.'

So, the attacker may just be psychotic thug, who happened to be from a Muslim family, or he have become recently radicalised and acted on behalf of IS. Who knows, but whatever the reason, the horror is real for all the people affected.

There has been an awful lot said in this thread, and in my opinion, a lot of it truly awful. My heart just goes out to all those affected, the innocent people who've had their whole lives and loved ones obliterated.

I know it sounds so naive, but why can't everyone just be nice to each other? I couldn't care less what colour your skin is, or what name you give your god, whether you think life begins when you die, or whether you think everyone goes to hell.

It's evident even in this thread, why can't people just accept that everyone is different, thinks different things, and has different beliefs? What is so wrong in just being nice to each other? Embracing differences, and cherishing similarities, and acceptance of all.

The world is so f*cked up. Wars, hatred, more wars.... Too many innocent people dead, or devastated through loss, or traumatised through war. Generation after generation. It's never ending, I honestly don't think it will ever end, there will always be something new, but equally as devastating. Be it 'world wars', cold wars, fights for independence, military coups, terrorism, disputes in politics, fights in pubs, or just individuals sparring on an online forum. What is the point? To score some points, and to hurt other people, people just like me and you.

When I despair of humanity, my only solace is in seeing how the decent, regular people rally around and help those in need. For all the bad people in the world, there are a thousands of good people, and those people have every colour of skin, worship every god known, (or not), and just love life, and respect their time on this earth.

 

[Dana1010]

deaths of civilians in the name of politics or religion anywhere in the world is shocking

Actually it's not. People--soldiers and civilians --have been dying over politics for thousands of years. It may just be "politics" to you, but to someone somewhere it could mean the difference between life and death. Suppose people were suffering or dying in front of you because some pig politician in a far off country thinks it's a good career move for them to endorse a policy they in fact know is wrong -- you'd want to "bring the war to their countries" too. Oh wait, they are, the politicians are in your own country, and all you can talk about is everyone being nice to each other. Maybe those Muslims have more sense that a lot of us here.

He also did not seem overtly religious. Locals said he was often seen drinking beer and never attended the small mosque near his block of flats. His father was concerned about his psychotic behaviour, and he'd been thrown out of the family home after allegedly beating up his wife.

Now, to be honest, I'm struggling to see what his religion has to do with it... except as an excuse / reason for his behaviour.

Well, this just gives weight to @The Albatross's point that Islam is not a religion, but a transnational political movement masquerading as a religion.

Anyway it's all a piece -- along with blood and soil, religion has always been one of the pillars of nationhood and a nation's politics. Islamist groups probably don't care much if you're exrememly observant of Islam as long as you support their national, political, and economic goals.

why can't people just accept that everyone is different, thinks different things, and has different beliefs?

They can accept it -- the problem is when meddlers force all these different people to live in the same space instead of leaving them to decide for themselves how and with whom they want to live.

 

[Deleted member 12723]

Muslims have been defeated in the many years of wars that dana was referring to and would pretend to become the new converts of the conquering nation so this is not a new thing that is just happening for the first time. The terrorists are armed and have many different kinds of ways to kill the non believers now and have access to the money needed to keep the declared war on the non muslim nations for as long as they want this time. A whole lot of history behind this action of declared war. I do not think I will get into a debate with anyone here I respectfully agree to disagree.

 

[The Albatross]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/french-truck-killer-had-support-accomplices-160754916.html