Grooming? Or...what...?

[Kintsugi]

I don't know if my experience will be useful at all, but I'll give it a shot.

I have been groomed by pedophiles/hebephiles multiple times (in my belief, at least). The first and most important of those was a self-described non-offending pedophile who was sexually and otherwise abused by his mother starting in infancy and who was utterly phobic of adult intimacy.

That being said, I have had the unique opportunity to discuss my relationship as a child with this man many times--at length. Basically, he admitted to having a relationship with me that, while more or less innocuous from my perspective, was fairly exploitative on his end. It seems that everyone around us knew he was a pedophile, and they knew that he had targeted me, but his behaviors (usually) seemed completely benign to me. However, he has told me that, for him, tickling me, brushing my hair, and other really innocent interactions were intimate to him, as intimate as he would ever be (remember, he has a phobic fear of actual sexual intimacy).

Anyway, he did groom me, and apparently my parents and every-f*cking-body else knew this really early on, but it never crossed a clear boundary. Looking back, I choose not to think of him as being some malevolent and manipulative person, although it has taken me a long time to process the relationship (and I still think about it a lot, because it was a major chapter in my life), BUT I do always think about him as the person who chose not to abuse me.

My experience was sort of complicated, but maybe it will be helpful. Or stimulating. Or not.

Be kind to yourself. :hug:

 

[Abstract]

Basically, he admitted to having a relationship with me that, while more or less innocuous from my perspective, was fairly exploitative on his end. ... but his behaviors (usually) seemed completely benign to me. However, he has told me that, for him, tickling me, brushing my hair, and other really innocent interactions were intimate to him, as intimate as he would ever be (remember, he has a phobic fear of actual sexual intimacy).

Thank you for expressing this. I wanted to express something like this but couldn't find the words to do so.

Its great you can share the perspective of the groomer as these situations are so hard to pin down sometimes. Its an interesting insight.

 

[BoN-bOn]

When I was in high school there was a principal that used to call me into his office, get me out of class, give me gifts, soft drinks, etc. & talk to me about boys or his family. He made me feel special & I was very naive & vulnerable at that time. Occasionally he would give me hugs that were inappropriate or try & hold my hand in the hallway. He knew my schedule & it always seemed he was everywhere I went. Even my friends began to notice that his contact with me was excessive.

Turned out he was doing it to other girls too. One of them approached me about it & we talked about things he would do. Next thing I know I was called into the office to be questioned by the state bureau of investigation. I told them the truth. Several other girls came forward as well as a teacher. He shot himself a few weeks later.

My parents never got me appropriate help, but I always felt like I was to blame for his death. After all, at least he didn't rape me like others had done when I was even younger. I'm trying to understand now that none of it was my fault.

 

[whiteraven]

When I was in high school there was a principal that used to call me into his office, get me out of cla...

Wow...this is eerily similar to what happened to me. Except he was never caught. And I don't think I ever acknowledged that it was even "weird" until I was probably in my late 30's.

 

[Suzetig]

I can't remember now exactly what she said but there was definitely something about he and his wife sort of hatching a plan to get him out of teaching and to get some money. He was the headteacher and it was over 20 years ago....it wasn't that uncommon then, I don't think, for "dodgy" staff to get referenced out and for it to be swept under the carpet.

It also wasn't uncommon at that time for grooming to be completely overlooked, misunderstood and ignored. It's only been in recent years that the grooming and abuse of children and young people has been really recognised as an offence. In Scotland for example grooming is specifically prohibited in legislation dated 2003, before that they cobbled together a range of offences to charge someone with when grooming was an issue, if it was dealt with st all. The change has been driven by the advent of the internet and online grooming, which is easier to evidence, and some of the large scale investigations into sexual exploitation of children and young people.

Adults were aware of what was happening to me very early on and rather than being protected, I was very violently punished for trying to seduce a married man, poor soul that he was. In fact I think some of the adults around at the time still consider it something I did rather than an abuse perpetrated on me.

Legislation in relation to child sexual exploitation extends to 18 year olds - i.e. beyond the age of consent - in recognition of how confusing the grooming process can be and how impossible it is for someone to give consent where they've been programmed to accept blurred boundaries as a keystone that the relationship is built on.

17 is still very young to expect to see all the nuances in relationships, to see manipulation and pushing boundaries, especially when someone is bending the rules "for me, how special am I that they'd do that". I think the hardest part is getting your head round what was real and what wasn't - so, was he warm, friendly, supportive, kind just to keep the grooming thing going or did any of it matter to him? And I do think it's likely to be a bit of both - that he did like you and care about you, and was also grooming you and testing how far he could go with you. I very much doubt it was a plot to retire early, simply because he wouldn't expect anyone to think anything was wrong. Your situation most likely predates position of trust legislation which again I think was enacted around the early 2000's so while his behaviour would have been considered odd, or inappropriate, he wouldn't necessarily have been considered to have done anything "wrong" at the time.

As times change and we see old behaviour with new eyes, and people become more aware that some accepted behaviours were actually harmful it's easy to find yourself questioning every relationship and interaction against current standards. I do think there's a place for doing that, but also to remember the social and cultural context was very different, you couldn't have been expected to notice something that was so poorly understood at the time.

 

[Kintsugi]

17 is still very young to expect to see all the nuances in relationships, to see manipulation and pushing boundaries, especially when someone is bending the rules "for me, how special am I that they'd do that". I think the hardest part is getting your head round what was real and what wasn't - so, was he warm, friendly, supportive, kind just to keep the grooming thing going or did any of it matter to him? And I do think it's likely to be a bit of both - that he did like you and care about you, and was also grooming you and testing how far he could go with you.

^ This. Yes. Well said.

 

[barefoot]

Thanks for all the replies - I appreciate you sharing your experiences here.

@Suzetig - Yes, I think the time difference (and therefore the cultural difference) makes this feel more confusing. All these years I have thought nothing of it. Then I mentioned it in passing to my teacher friend a couple of weeks ago, who looked horrified and said that, if it were now, a serious disciplinary would be launched and he would likely lose his job. And maybe be arrested.

So, I don't know if it is more helpful to me to simply shrug it off as a bit odd but no harm done. Or whether I should be thinking that he did something wrong/potentially harmful and that this is another example of my "squiffy boundaries" that I should take to my therapist to discuss with the context of our work.

No harm was done, I don't think.

 

[Gs172003]

I had several bosses as a teen that would make sexual remarks to me on a regular basis and my first one took me to a party at a lake. I don't remember how many other employees went or of any of the others were even female. I don't call it grooming for me because I was aware of it but I never took it seriously. They never tried anything either. However... My second husband singled out my middle daughter and made her his favorite. He was nice to her and mean to the other two kids. He wanted her to cuddle with him, kiss him on the lips and he did her hair all the time. I thought it was odd. To this day I feel like he was grooming her especially when we divorced and he asked for visitation. They weren't his kids.

 

[barefoot]

@Zoogal - I think if he'd have made overtly sexual remarks to me, I would find that more straightforward now in labelling his behaviour "wrong". So, the fact that he didn't means that I'm swinging back to, it was a bit odd but ok.
But then I wonder if I'm making excuses for him.

When I was a teacher, would I have gone to a pupil's bedroom on a school trip when they were on their own and wearing their pjs? Would I have gone in and shut the door? Would I have kissed them on lips - albeit just a peck?
No, absolutely not to all of the above. Never.

I've re-read everything in this thread and still feel confused. I still don't really know if he did something wrong. And it is making me feel more confused and quite stupid that I seem to have such difficulty in dertermining whether something/someone is ok and appropriate or not.

 

[Gs172003]

@Zoogal - I think if he'd have made overtly sexual remarks to me, I would find that...

Did he see you as a daughter figure? Did you remind him of somebody? It's so danged hard to say what somebody else had in mind

 

[The Albatross]

"I kind of want to just reduce it to terms of "was it ok or not ok?" If it wasn't really ok but he probably did still like me/found me interesting etc, that feels less clear and more confusing. Dealing with absolutes would feel easier in some way, I think. Well...would feel like there was more clarity"

Stuff like that I throw in the "unknowable" basket because in the absence of more information, information I did not have at the time of whatever the incident was there is no clear cut answer. Yeah it would "feel easier" however I trend personally to not volunteer to risk false assumptions and further complicate my issues.

I think I'd roll with what you said at the end of post #31, "No harm was done, I don't think." If that doesn't sit well, then it's an "unknowable" and perhaps you can decide that in this situation you lack sufficient evidence either way to come to a conclusion except - No harm was done.

???

 

[barefoot]

it's an "unknowable" and perhaps you can decide that in this situation you lack sufficient evidence either way to come to a conclusion except - No harm was done.

Ok...yes...I think I'm probably just wasting time, energy and headspace going round in circles with this. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter.