How do you define "love"?

[shimmerz]

3 words can make lots of people bolt these days. Even a sideways glance can do it. I honestly am at the age and stage that I don't actually give much of a crap what people think. After all I have been through, I am not much one for a bunch of Sensitive Sally's in my space. Try to keep it in perspective Lost. Just because she thinks it, doesn't mean it is true, you know?

 

[lostforgottensoul]

But, sometimes it's good to wait a bit and see what happens.

Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I told her everything I needed to and told her to contact me when she is ready to talk and work it out but that I wasn't making myself available for daggers being thrown at me. That I didn't deserve that and neither does she. That I would leave her alone. She hasn't left the chat so I suppose that's a good sign. I mean she hasn't said anything but also hasn't left the chat. I would think that if she was leaving for good that she would have left the chat but I dunno. She said she was taking a break off youtube. Sort of proud of myself for that one.

This is “I’m hurt so I’m going to take you out in any way I can” behavior.

Yeah. I think that's what it is. She has PTSD as well and something must of triggered her. I don't see this triggering her but maybe something about it. Not sure really. I mean, i explained this 20 times and she kept going at me. I told her that I don't know what she's going through but to not take it out on me. But, I'm giving her distance and that's been proven to help.

I think when it comes to online friends, we as people who struggle with relationships and ptsd, need to be REALLY careful about who we befriend. I have had so many online friends over the years.....and I’ve only kept ONE long term (and somehow in all the years I’ve known him, we’ve only had one fight, a miracle in and of itself, all things considered, and yes, it was my fault.) So anyway, I say all of this just to point out that making online friends is quite difficult, especially since it can take awhile for red flags to pop up. Even finding someone who meshes well with us can be a daunting task!

It's weird though cuz we seemed to mesh well and see things simular. We've had disagreements but she's never flat out gone off on me. We've become real close over the last year. It's why I made her my youtube MOD. I trusted her and her decisions.

She had a loss recently. I can't say what sort of loss but it was huge and sudden and one that changes ability to function, at all. I promised her I wouldn't tell anyone and I won't. See, she has me wrong. This is how I treat friends. I keep their secerts and take them to the grave. It wasn't a fair move for her to question how I treat my friends. That is what really hurt because I know I make a good friend. No one ever really gives me the chance and I don't know why. Maybe due to all my walls. I think having a service dog is helping that a lot as I've been able to carry on convos with people on a good day when he's with me so maybe its just a matter of time before meeting a person that'll end uo becoming a friend?

I guess I say all this because I don’t want you to give up. You ARE lovable! Sometimes it just takes awhile to find the right kind of people. :hug:

Thank you! Just so hard to believe it when you let someone so close and then they kick you in the gut. You know? Just makes it all seem like, is it even worth it to search for the "right kind of people" and maybe there isn't the "right kind of people" that can handle me, my past, and the issues that come with me. You know?

Doesn’t mean you can’t read.

I get what you're saying but it all circles back to I have no one to compare it to...except for my service dog. But, as for people, they've all bailed on me.

Maybe I'm trying too hard? Trying to force a friendship on an acquaintance? I mean, it felt like more the just an acquaintance. I've shared things with her that I've never shared with anyone. She distracted me though a suicicidal ideation. I was there for her with this loss she had and even offered to give her my phone number. She ended up getting ahold of her therapist so she didn't need it but isn't that more in the friend catigory? I call co-workers acquaintances but maybe I was trying too hard? I think I tend to try too hard and scare people away. Ugh! I don't know. But being she was my only friend (even if only online...it felt very personal) and she also bailed...it just makes me feel like it's not possible for anyone to love or even like me. I'm broken. Who wants someone so used and broken?

I know there's some distorted thoughts in there. I can see that much and I'm not trying to hold a pity party. It's just that rying to pick them out is a large feat. Maybe CBT thought records could help with that? Or CBT in general?

Just because she thinks it, doesn't mean it is true, you know?

That's a hard one that I've always struggled with. The very first thing my therapist wrote on the back of a business card, which is still on my fridge, "What other people think of me is none of my business". It was about my family. It's just hard as I already have abandonment issues and then I'm kicking myself as after the pastor left I said "never again" then end up getting close to this chick and let my guard down. Why does it always seem to happen when you've let your guard down? If it was up I think it wouldn't of made me spin so hard! I dunno, just a hard one for me. Hard not to believe it when so many are saying the same things. My family, all the online friends I've ever tried to make, in person friends I tried to make, my ex. I mean, everyone that's ever been in my life has exited my life and are all saying the same thing. What makes them wrong? How do I know what's actually true? You know?

 

[NaeNae75]

Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I told her everything I needed to and told her to contact me when she is ready to talk and work it out but that I wasn't making myself available for daggers being thrown at me. That I didn't deserve that and neither does she. That I would leave her alone. She hasn't left the chat so I suppose that's a good sign. I mean she hasn't said anything but also hasn't left the chat. I would think that if she was leaving for good that she would have left the chat but I dunno. She said she was taking a break off youtube. Sort of proud of myself for that one.



Yeah. I think that's what it is. She has PTSD as well and something must of triggered her. I don't see this triggering her but maybe something about it. Not sure really. I mean, i explained this 20 times and she kept going at me. I told her that I don't know what she's going through but to not take it out on me. But, I'm giving her distance and that's been proven to help.



It's weird though cuz we seemed to mesh well and see things simular. We've had disagreements but she's never flat out gone off on me. We've become real close over the last year. It's why I made her my youtube MOD. I trusted her and her decisions.

She had a loss recently. I can't say what sort of loss but it was huge and sudden and one that changes ability to function, at all. I promised her I wouldn't tell anyone and I won't. See, she has me wrong. This is how I treat friends. I keep their secerts and take them to the grave. It wasn't a fair move for her to question how I treat my friends. That is what really hurt because I know I make a good friend. No one ever really gives me the chance and I don't know why. Maybe due to all my walls. I think having a service dog is helping that a lot as I've been able to carry on convos with people on a good day when he's with me so maybe its just a matter of time before meeting a person that'll end uo becoming a friend?



Thank you! Just so hard to believe it when you let someone so close and then they kick you in the gut. You know? Just makes it all seem like, is it even worth it to search for the "right kind of people" and maybe there isn't the "right kind of people" that can handle me, my past, and the issues that come with me. You know?



I get what you're saying but it all circles back to I have no one to compare it to...except for my service dog. But, as for people, they've all bailed on me.

Maybe I'm trying too hard? Trying to force a friendship on an acquaintance? I mean, it felt like more the just an acquaintance. I've shared things with her that I've never shared with anyone. She distracted me though a suicicidal ideation. I was there for her with this loss she had and even offered to give her my phone number. She ended up getting ahold of her therapist so she didn't need it but isn't that more in the friend catigory? I call co-workers acquaintances but maybe I was trying too hard? I think I tend to try too hard and scare people away. Ugh! I don't know. But being she was my only friend (even if only online...it felt very personal) and she also bailed...it just makes me feel like it's not possible for anyone to love or even like me. I'm broken. Who wants someone so used and broken?

I know there's some distorted thoughts in there. I can see that much and I'm not trying to hold a pity party. It's just that rying to pick them out is a large feat. Maybe CBT thought records could help with that? Or CBT in general?



That's a hard one that I've always struggled with. The very first thing my therapist wrote on the back of a business card, which is still on my fridge, "What other people think of me is none of my business". It was about my family. It's just hard as I already have abandonment issues and then I'm kicking myself as after the pastor left I said "never again" then end up getting close to this chick and let my guard down. Why does it always seem to happen when you've let your guard down? If it was up I think it wouldn't of made me spin so hard! I dunno, just a hard one for me. Hard not to believe it when so many are saying the same things. My family, all the online friends I've ever tried to make, in person friends I tried to make, my ex. I mean, everyone that's ever been in my life has exited my life and are all saying the same thing. What makes them wrong? How do I know what's actually true? You know?

Oh boy, I feel like this a LOT. The funny thing is, I've also come to learn it isn't true. This is one of big things I've worked on in therapy over the years. Because of my childhood and multiple traumas (seemingly endless) part of me "learned" that's all I deserve. But I've worked very hard at trying to re-learn that's not true.

I work so hard at believing I'm good and worth other people believing it too. So along with that, I've been told I attract "damaged" people. (The whole mirror concept) I don't know if it's everyone, but I think I'm now getting "healthier" people in my life too. Honestly I'm not sure, I can't tell yet.

I think part of it is I relate better, ....and feel safer, maybe, with "damaged" people. I have more in common with them. But old me needed to help "fix" and "overdo" for people in order to feel accepted, wanted, and "loved".

Funny thing about how you're describing this friendship and how you're feeling about this is exactly how I feel about my PTSD vet boyfriend's isolation periods. I mean, it's uncanny. Since you said she has PTSD, have you considered this is some reaction to her being symptomatic and you just didn't recognize that?

This is the easy he does it, basically. He'll get close or confide something, or just becausr something triggered him. Then he'll pick a fight. Then he'll be so hard on himself about it (sometimes not telling me why until later) that he needs to withdraw .because of the guilt/ shame he's feeling. Is his defense mechanism.

Im not saying this is definitely what's going on, but it kind of fits. Both people having PTSD makes for an interesting dance sometimes, I know firsthand because of my own family dynamics.

If you think this could be a possibility, @Freida 's post in supporters discussion can give you tips on how both sides deal with this sort of relationship. It deals mostly with Congress, but it's the same for friendships too.

I hope it helps, if not disregard! But you are worthy of friends... you truly are.

 

[scout86]

I think I tend to try too hard and scare people away.

Maybe. That's an issue for people with some kinds of less that great attachment styles. But this is complicated, no matter what. You mentioned she has PTSD, that makes it MORE complicated because you're both trying to navigate a friendship, while dealing with your own stuff. You've never had a chance to learn much about safe, sane relationships. Has she? What @NaeNae75 said about isolating is a really good point too.

I mean, i explained this 20 times and she kept going at me.

Sometimes that can be overwhelming. If you're on the receiving end of it, it can feel like you're trapped and are being relentlessly hounded by the person doing the explaining. Regardless of how they intend it. But it's also hard to be sensitive to how they're taking things in the heat of the moment, when it feels like you just HAVE to make yourself understood.

If she's a person who's really able to be a friend, give her some space, see what happens, and see if you can, maybe, regroup down the road. Because maybe you actually can. If you can't, it's entirely possible that's because she's just not at a place where she's able to handle her own stuff and the friendship too. Or she might THINK she can't, which has the same effect. It doesn't make either of you "wrong", or "bad", it just means things might be too hard right now. Just like a dog like Chopper may be a great dog, but he's not the RIGHT dog for every owner. Doesn't make him a bad dog, or the person a bad person. It's just not the right combination.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

have you considered this is some reaction to her being symptomatic and you just didn't recognize that?

I thought about it. She did have a huge loss (wish I could say of what cuz that would make more sense but I advised her I wouldn't tell anyone and that means here too...for me) and that seemed to cause a bit of unsteadiness in her. Her comments became more aggressive over time. Something I noticed but never brought to her attention because I figured it was this loss. She was able to recoup this loss in a small way but it caused what I noticed as real aggressive-like behavior and then it seemed to "explode".

I probably should go hang out in the supporter section. I can probably get some good advise for when she comes back. God, now I feel like a supporter asking when isolation will be over! Lol!

I've seen this once before. A pre-teen service dog handler (non-PTSD, medical alert) thought to create a chat of handlers that were against the bullshit under trained dogs in places they aren't ready for that's going on in the youtube service dog community at the moment and she was the only non-PTSDer. It was 4 of us orginal then we brought in 2 others. 7 totally and all has PTSD but the one...who is 12. We triggered each other in a day and the chat fell apart totally in less then 2 weeks. So, yes, I've seen this. But, we were always really tight. Or, at least that's how I saw it and how I felt. I think that's why it hurts so badly.

If she's a person who's really able to be a friend, give her some space, see what happens, and see if you can, maybe, regroup down the road.

Yeah, that's what I'm doing.

 

[NaeNae75]

I probably should go hang out in the supporter section. I can probably get some good advise for when she comes back. God, now I feel like a supporter asking when isolation will be over! Lol!

But, we were always really tight. Or, at least that's how I saw it and how I felt. I think that's why it hurts so badly.

Yep, this is pretty much how it feels... welcome to both sides of the coin! Lol...I know how you feel. It's hard to know when you're coming or going.

 

[shimmerz]

Lost, your therapist doesn't do group sessions does he? Can he advise you, if you may be interested, in perhaps joining one? It really is a tremendous help in re-integrating after all you have been through in your life. Just a suggestion. It has helped me tremendously.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Lost, your therapist doesn't do group sessions does he? Can he advise you, if you may be interested, in perhaps joining one?

He doesn't but has suggested it the entire 9 yrs I have been his patient. As has the last insurence company (before last job change). It's why he found this site. Because I was never able to get myself to feel safe enough to go to one so he looked for online support for me.

I emailed a group once. They emailed me back. Was a closed group and you had to be approved to get in because it was specificlly trauma survivors. Anyway, the group met on a day and at a time I was working every week (back when I worked nights) but there would have been no way to fight the fear at the time and I was highly unstable. This was just before I joined here.

Since I've have had a service dog, it's come back up. I think, with Chopper (my service dog in training) I can go. Still a shit ton of fear and anxiety (even now just from typing about it) but I think I might be able to push through it if Chopper is there with me.

So, possibly. But, will need to google some groups and see if I can get in one. I worked nights back then. I work days now so will be easier to find one at a time I'm not working. Would be great training/exposure for Chopper as well. And I already know it's therapist approved. He really wants me less isolated but small groups have been a topic of discussion the entire time I've been his patient. It's the reason the topic of service dog really came up. The extreme fear of people. Online has always been safer for me.

 

[joeylittle]

But, as for people, they've all bailed on me.

Maybe I'm trying too hard? Trying to force a friendship on an acquaintance? I mean, it felt like more the just an acquaintance. I've shared things with her that I've never shared with anyone. She distracted me though a suicicidal ideation. I was there for her with this loss she had and even offered to give her my phone number. She ended up getting ahold of her therapist so she didn't need it but isn't that more in the friend catigory?

I know there's some distorted thoughts in there. I can see that much and I'm not trying to hold a pity party. It's just that rying to pick them out is a large feat. Maybe CBT thought records could help with that? Or CBT in general?

DBT.

You are offering intimacy - sharing things about you/your life (including suicidal thinking), willingness to give your phone number - and truly believed that you were friends, not acquaintances. Then, when the relationship experiences conflict, you experience it as being more intensely personal than it probably needs to be. Instability in personal relationships is one of the key components in BPD, and I know you have really questioned that diagnosis for a while now....but so much of what you are describing can be attributed to borderline-style thinking.

It seems like you are seeing parts of that more clearly, which is really great. Managing the behaviors and feelings around relationships is a huge part of what DBT is explicitly made for. CBT doesn't really go the distance on that stuff, because it doesn't get into how to work with the intensity of the feelings that can accompany the thoughts. DBT also covers relational stuff, in the Interpersonal Affectiveness area.

It could really be worth it to spend some time in the DBT manual you have, see if some of that interpersonal stuff and emotional regulation can help at all.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

It could really be worth it to spend some time in the DBT manual you have, see if some of that interpersonal stuff and emotional regulation can help at all.

I will. Thank you!

Interpersonal stuff isn't my cup of tea so to speak. Can't do it right to save my life! Blah!