Impermanence.

[anonymous]

Hi, I tried doing a search on impermanence but didn't find anything relevant.

I understand this is a concept that many try to GAIN, but I assure you that when you take it to extremes, it is just as bad.

I'm wondering if anyone knows of any research done on impermanence in relationship to childhood trauma? My issues with impermanence lie in the fact that I don't believe anyone's feelings or actions to be permanent. That is, if someone is mean to me or says something unkind, I take it as the final word and walk away, even if there were 100 other kind and loving things they said/did to/for me in the past. My mind has the inability to reconcile the good and the bad. I just think well, those good feelings were fleeting (impermanent) and I move on.

Half of the time I expect my father, brother, sister, etc to kick me out of their lives without another care if I do something wrong. A logical assessment would say that this isn't going to happen, but in my mind, its a very real thing. That is, there is no relationship permanence. My mind says that its perfectly reasonable for someone to leave your life and not have another care in the world about it. Oh, they no longer care. (Accepted.) Moving on.

I liken my childhood to have been a house of mirrors inside the twilight zone. Yeah, a total mind f***. Nothing was ever to be trusted except the EXACT moment at hand when you could see/feel the "truth".....err, or an approximation of the truth. Nothing from the past could be trusted as what you thought you knew was twisted beyond recognition, and the future was even more uncertain. I learned to not trust anything, ever.

I know I've got another thread floating around here somewhere about being unable to fully bond with people. Yeah, I guess this is more along that same vein. If everything is so incredibly impermanent, there is NO point to bonding, right? I'm not saying this logically, rather if you are at the extreme end of the spectrum in regards to impermanence, there really is no point to bonding, which is why I want to learn more about this so I can move forward and not have this perpetual impermanence cloud over my head. That is, if there is ZERO permanence, bonding with others would only serve to cause a never ending sea of pain as people would constantly be coming in and out of your life.

And please no philosophical Buddhist debates about how accepting impermanence is a good thing. That argument comes from the other side of things, and that is not where I am. That is, that argument is geared toward those who have a difficult time accepting that nothing is permanent. I struggle with believing that anything relationship wise has a duration longer than 2.5 seconds. Yes, the same overall concept, but coming at it from a completely different direction.

And I guess it goes without saying that I don't trust easily. At all. I am still surprised when people say to me "I know you don't trust easily..." I stare at them blankly, thinking "hmmm, what gave it away?" In my mind I'm not throwing up any flags that say I can't trust!

 

[Deleted member 1860]

Ok well THIS stinks, I accidentally hit the "anonymous" button AS I posted. Yes, this is MY thread. SORRY!

 

[Rumors]

Does this have any parallel to abandonment? I can relate to your words, Sol. It can feel like a lonely place... I wish I had an answer, but I do feel like, at times, when people really get to know me, they will bolt!!!
Hang in there!

 

[StellaBlue]

My issues with impermanence lie in the fact that I don't believe anyone's feelings or actions to be permanent. That is, if someone is mean to me or says something unkind, I take it as the final word and walk away, even if there were 100 other kind and loving things they said/did to/for me in the past. My mind has the inability to reconcile the good and the bad. I just think well, those good feelings were fleeting (impermanent) and I move on.

This doesn't seem to me to be quite about impermancence. If it were, you would be able to accept that BOTH the good and the bad feelings were impermanent. Instead, it seems, the one bad thing is negating the 100 good things. That, to me at least, would be more of a cognitive distortion.

(Please note my unusual restraint in not bringing up Buddhism :)!)

 

[Justmehere]

That is, there is no relationship permanence. My mind says that its perfectly reasonable for someone to leave your life and not have another care in the world about it. Oh, they no longer care. (Accepted.) Moving on.

I think this way a lot. In fact, I expect people to leave, abruptly, without warning. When I first started going to my current therapist, I was actually surprised that she was there, every week. It is like something in me expected to walk up to her office, and without notice, see that it was no longer there, and she was gone. And I would have been quite matter of fact about it. Intellectually, I knew that this was not likely to happen at all, but on another level, it's like I physically was surprised that she was still there. And there the next week. And the next week.

My therapist says that for me, she thinks this is about having an avoidant attachment style and a fear of abandonment that is numbed out, or was numbed out. Avoidant attachment style is in a nutshell, I don't need/depend on people and they don't need me. For whatever reason. They can be there or not there, and it doesn't change things much.

My previous trauma therapist in a PTSD intensive treatment told me that some people who go through trauma end up being "almost pathologically independent." That's me. I had to have surgery a couple of years ago. I had friends who could drive me there. I didn't ask. I asked for a ride home, because the hospital required it, but not a ride there. It didn't even cross my mind to ask for a ride there. I really struggle with the idea that my friends will even stay in my life. I just expect, not so much fear, but expect, they will be gone, at any moment. For me, it's how I protect against them from abandoning me like my family did.

There were times as a kid where I would be in trouble, and without telling me what I did wrong or that I was being punished, my family would just leave me. I would wake up in the morning, and they would be gone. Off to have breakfast or do some fun thing. Only later would they tell me they left me behind, as a 9 year old kid, as punishment for not loading the dishwasher right the day before.

So I learned to not need anyone. It is changing for me. I really don't understand how or why it is changing.

 

[Rumors]

@Justmehere
I could have written much of this... Pathologically independent bc I expect people to leave or only be available when convenient which can be torturous as well. I just tend not to depend on people for emotional support. Too risky...

 

[ekane]

Um... I think you're confused. Pardon me if I'm misunderstanding your post.

Your natural reaction as a human being is to be weary/cautious of people who raise red flags NY saying/doing mean things. That's called being healthy and having boundaries. When someone screws up they have to EARN your trust back with real, hard work. Its not on you to give that to them ever again. Your child hood was destroyed so you have every right and reason to think that today your family could still flip a switch, because they can. If they were truly doing hard work and therapy to change themselves then you wouldn't be as scared.

Are they hard at work in counseling to make sure they become fully healthy and learn all the best ways to support you in yourbrecovery? Yeah I didn't think so!

If someone says something mean to me then its almost always because they are toxic and abusive aka need to be eliminated from my life immediately. Family especially. These are the worst ones. Your gut knows between safe and unsafe people. If someone screws up twice now you have a pattern!!! So don't give them anymore of yourself. They will act nice for a while to lay low and then bam! Abuse hits again.

You might be able to trust them in some areas but not in others. Guess what. That's their fault!!

I don't know where you got this idea about impermance and it being something bad or wrong. Taking stuff extremely seriously and not minimizing being treated poorly is crucial for your self esteem, self worth, dignity, and protection. Learning to become a safe healthy person who only attracts and allows other safe healthy people into their life is what its about. Someone who is responsible and safe will never do or say anything that would make you seriously even consider ending the relationship.

Trust takes tons of time though. And a person can't keep having little slip ups along the way and earn trust from another.

Take another look at the people you are talking about. Are they being fully responsible and doing the work to improve their behavior? Are they deep in research trying to improve themselves. Nope. So then why are you blaming yourself? Act accordingly and protect your most vulnerable thoughts and feelings from these untrustworthy people.
That means limit your engagement, create boundaries, or end the relationship altogether. You don't owe them anything. They owe you a long term proven track record of being fully safe and supportive which is what did not happen in your childhood and gave you PTSD to begin with.

Its one thing to think being abandoned is okay. Its another to think that you should trust someone who screwed up just because for the last few years they seemed perfect, aka sweep their betrayal under the rug. Deal in the present.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

Does this have any parallel to abandonment?

Probably! I know I felt abandoned by my mother throughout childhood. Not in the absolute sense of being *gone* but in that she was an alcoholic who couldn't be depended on for squat and was notorious for making promises and never coming through.

That, to me at least, would be more of a cognitive distortion.

Can't it be both? Yes, I'd agree that it is a cognitive distortion, but I fail to see how only struggling with the impermanence of certain things (and not all things) automatically rules it out as an impermanence issue? Most people would say that they can see the impermanence of a sand castle, but struggle with larger things such as the impermanence of life.

My therapist says that for me, she thinks this is about having an avoidant attachment style and a fear of abandonment that is numbed out, or was numbed out. Avoidant attachment style is in a nutshell, I don't need/depend on people and they don't need me. For whatever reason. They can be there or not there, and it doesn't change things much.

I know I have attachment issues. I was never formally diagnosed with an attachment disorder, but I did have a therapist who worked primarily with adopted kids (I am not adopted) so she could see the signs in me. I guess I get frustrated because SO much of this comes down to my mother! My dad wasn't perfect, but he wasn't the one who was constantly letting me down. He wasn't the one who made it so I can't trust a damn thing.

I wish I could attach more easily. I know its going to take baby steps, trusting a little bit more and a little bit more. But sometimes I wonder if I will ever "get there" so to speak? Will I ever able to bond to the point where I can have a fully functional relationship?

I, too, make sure that I can do everything for myself. It never occurs to me to ask people for help with anything. Maybe I've internalized the "fix yourself" thing a bit too much in that I feel like I can't ask anyone for anything? I know that anything but complete independence makes me feel weak. I tell myself that I need to be strong and do things for myself. If I depend on others, I am giving them power over myself, power to manipulate me and power to hurt me. They can hold things over me and use it against me.

AARRGGHH. I realize this reply is devolving into all of the ways that my mother has negatively affected my thinking. I know I need to work on this. Fortunately this is now a possibility now that my mother is out of my life!

 

[Deleted member 1860]

@ekane,

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Its my MOM who primarily caused these issues in me. She is the one who couldn't be depended on for anything. My brother and sister were very much "victims" of the same family dynamic. My father wasn't as active in protecting us kids as he should have been.

I guess I should clarify that my main issue with this is not with my family. That is, yes, it is an issue to an extent in that I have these thoughts of walking away or being kicked out at the drop of a pin, but my main issue is that this impermanence thing crosses over into friendships and relationships outside of my family. That is, if a friend gets upset with me, I take that to be the end all and be all of the friendship and move on. Same goes with romantic interests. Its like past thoughts/actions don't matter and future thoughts/actions don't matter, either. Sorry if this is confusing! That is, the GOOD stuff cannot be trusted, because it all goes away the instant things go awry. I know this may not make much sense, but as I said, the only thing that could ever be trusted for me was the exact moment I was living it. It was detrimental to me to trust the past, as past behavior sure as heck was not a predictor of future behavior, and I couldn't trust the future, either because of so many broken promises and flat out lies that were told to me.

My struggle isn't with bad people. Bad people are out of my life. My struggle is that I can NOT trust good, safe people because I don't believe their kind actions toward me are part of an overall picture of genuine concern or that their kind words express feelings for me beyond the moment that they leave their lips. This isn't about accepting abuse. This is about my inability to trust good people.

 

[ekane]

Ah, I think I understand you now.

And I realize I relate. But I don't think its bad, I think its actually a huge sign of being in the recovery process.

For example, I have a lifelong friend, sometimes she makes mistakes with our relationship because she also is damaged from a bad childhood and hasn't done as much therapy as me. I frequently am prepared for the latest screw up to be the end of relationship. This is becuase I am vigilant about my own boundaries and self respect really. So I am aware of all her issues and I can chose were to draw the line for myself. I love her like a sister, but I love myself more.

I don't think its bad that I feel that relationship can go at the drop of a dime. Its a sign of truama clearly but its also a phase. In 10 or 15 years its likely a symptom that will fade because its just the brain trying to prove to itself I a backward way that "yes I am finally safe now with people". I hope that makes sense.

In fact the impermanence helped me finally smoke out the slickest most well-hidden snakes in the grass so to speak. When impernance become one of my symptoms, it helped me weed out a friend of 20+ years in a matter of months, becuase impermance also nudges the brain to deeper honesty about whays really going on. That constant questioning of friendships, coworkers etc help raise my standards down to the tiniest details.

I am tempted to say this though - your father failed to protect you. Why? Was he literally/legally not allowed to? Because otherwise I would think he plays 50% of why you can't trust "good" people. A lot of parents try to look like the good guy while doing nothing save the child from a monster. That makes two monster parents and sets up extremely confusing gauge system for what a good person actually is and how they behave.

Your father set the perfect storm for you to have this issue with "healthy" people. Your child self thought dad was safe, but he left you hanging and struggling for dear life. So of course you're ready for any "health and safe" person to be gone any time, any day. Just want to make sure you're not putting this all on your mom because frankly that's not really the whole reason you have this issue.



"Good" people are hard to find, take a long time to get to know. If deep in your soul your "safe" dad failed, then why is all the blame on mom? Perhaps that is part of your brain blocking out exactly what needs to be opened up for you impermanence issues to heal faster.

 

[darrenS]

I can understand and for many many years always viewed my friendships as not being , they could fall at any minute type thing, oh if i say the wrong thing they will hate me forever. I have struggled with the same things in relationships and tended to believe that any wrong move would result in failure, it took a long time to learn it is the basis of friendships , etc and not everyone will dump me if im upset or they are upset at me.

I do enjoy some solid friendships that have been ongoing for 40yrs and for that i know i am very lucky , it also tells me that people do value me and its ok to be me , its not going to kill my solid friendships and if it puts at risk friendships that havent really formed fully , then i can only do what i can do at that time.

I am also of the mind that nothing is forever so enjoy it whilst its there, and yes all good times must come to an end , its the natural flow of things.

You write some thought provoking issues Solara, even if you hit the wrong button :)

 

[scout86]

Things can be permanent?

From what I've read, and been told, a baby is supposed to learn to trust that their caregiver is reliable and will be "there" for them. Basically permanent. If you don't learn that THEN, when would you learn it? In fact, from that point on, does it even matter?

I'm not sure what the "normal" view is on this. If we're talking about people, I don't know that you CAN, reliably, think feelings or relationships are permanent. But, it's not a black or white deal. Someone isn't 100% reliable or 100% unreliable, with nothing possible in between. It's a balancing act and things changes or can change. Some people are more reliable, some people are more honest, some people are more transparent. Some are less so and some are deliberately deceptive. (THOSE, I try to avoid.) Once you realize that people can let you down, trust is a choice. I figure out what I've got to gain or lose, and consider what I know about the person, and decide to trust them (or not), Or how far to trust them. If there's not much to lose, then I'm more willing to trust. In my lifetime, I've met a lot of people I'd trust to let my dogs out in the afternoon. I've met a few I'd trust with my life. I might have met one that I'd trust not to lie to me. None of it is very black and white.

Babies, I guess, normally start out thinking they can trust everyone and learn, at some point, that that isn't true. Some of us start out learning we can't trust anyone, and then might decide we want to learn to at least trust some people some of the time.