Is 11+ Hours Of Sleep Too Much?

[Kas_Can_Fly]

Ok, so whilst I never wake up feeling lively and refreshed, the best I feel in the morning is if I sleep until I no longer feel that I desperately need to. For me, typically I would go to bed about 11 and wake up between 10 and 11 the next day, if I go to bed at 10 instead I'll wake up between 9 and 10. Every now and then I'll go to bed at like 6pm and not wake up properly until midday the next day, but only on rare occassions and usually when I'm upset. The thing is, whilst I was lucky to get to sleep at a reasonable hour, I wake up on average 18-20 times a night, sometimes more but rarely less.

My sleep has been like this, clockwork and for many years now, I can wake up earlier for a number of days or weeks, but in the end I crash completely exhausted and then when I'm lacking sleep I get more unstable mentally. So now I try and avoid that at all costs.

Now I'm on Mirtazapine, I don't get to sleep until 3-4 in the morning and though the amount of times I wake up has decreased to about 8-12 times a night and for less length of time per awakening. When I take it, I get a wide awake feeling for about four hours, but then still can't sleep until I'm exhausted. Because my mum is monitoring my medication, I had often been taking it at 9-10pm which was not helping, but now we've worked out a system where she always gives me the next day's tablet, so I can take it earlier. Yesterday I was told by a different social worker to my normal one that "Mirtazapine doesn't give you a rush, you're just so worried about sleep that you think it does, it's in your head" and that I mustn't drink caffeine (I NEVER do) or Red Bull (Well that's got caffeine in, I insisted, I NEVER drink caffeine and typically avoid sugar but was ignored). Ok so this triggered me into feeling stupidly guilty - that this was all my fault and completely unsafe, even though I know that insomnia is on the side-effects list and that many people get a rush on higher doses.

The fact is that this sleep issue is exact to the Mirtazapine, it started when I was first given it in hospital in January. If I skip it one night, I can sleep. I don't even care that much about it, I care more that I've been asking for a psychiatrist appointment to sort out meds since October and I've still got to wait until April. He also told me to wake up at 6 every morning - but if I do that I'll end up incredibly unstable or in hospital and seeing as the Mirtazapine is already leaving me always down and always hopeless, I don't need any extra pushes.

Sorry for all that ranting - I needed it. I feel guilty and bad about my sleep and that people will judge me as being lazy or will tell me I don't need as much as I think I do, but I really do need that much. I just wonder does anyone else find that they need about 11-12 hours or even more a night of sleep (I know it's less after all the wake ups)?

 

[Toria]

Hello - I can't comment on your medication, or its effects, but what I can say is that when I was at school and college and didn't need to set an alarm I would wake naturally after 11 hours sleep. It's been a long time since I didn't set an alarm! But on the rate occassions I don't have to I still wake up after 11 hours. I don't sleep as well as I used to but I know what I need - I just don't get it x

 

[pamcoco]

I sleep ridiculous amounts of time. For the first few years of ptsd I slept for DAYS at a time.I do not wake up during the night, well not often, I only recently began having nightmares of being attacked and these cause me to actually physically fight off the attacker, which jolts me awake. But still I sleep like a rock. I am on Lexapro and ADD meds and they definitely play a roll in my endless twilight. The Lexapro causes me to have the most intense and generally pleasant dreams. It is like my dreams are more my life than my life.

Anyway, I think sleep is the body and minds way of restoring itself. It makes sense that you need extra restoration! Snooze away ;-)

 

[digger]

What dose of mirtazapine are you on? On a lower dose 15mg it helped with my sleep in a sedating way, but also gave me very vivid dreams. Higher doses for me did not have the same sedating effect. Higher doses make me restless until I got used to it.

 

[rainy_daze]

(@Kas_Can_Fly the main point is in bold at the bottom. I wrote all this then realised you'd only asked one question :banghead::rolleyes::))

When I was on Mirtazapine [which I took with sleeping tablets, although the NHS seems against using them now], I experienced: vivid dreams, mania (is that the rush feeling you're talking about? it includes a lovely fit of giggling and feeling light headed? I preferred it to sadness any day), weight gain (increased appetite). It was a long time ago, but that's the only side effects I remember having bother with. The mania only really bothered other people, and then they got shouted at by me, because would they rather I was miserable? I digress...

My insomnia would have been there with or without Mirtazapine. The sleeping tablets helped a great deal, until I guess I built up a tolerance to them. It doesn't sound like you're taking sleeping tablets. I think Mirtazapine alone made me drowsy at first, but this didn't last too long.

I was on 30mg, which increased to 45mg, which was then topped up with some evil nasty medication when the 45mg stopped working. This was over a long period of time, maybe 3 or 4 years. I found that when the Mirtazapine worked, it was the greatest anti depressant ever. I functioned well - I worked full time during the summers and studied the rest of the year. It's a shame it stopped working and I never found a medication or combination that made me feel human.

It sounds like you're having some trouble adjusting to it, or it working in the way you want it to, and everyone is different. Maybe it's not the right one for you or maybe your body still needs some time to get used to it. It also sounds like the social worker wasn't listening to you properly - very frustrating.

I was also advised to never drink caffeine after 6pm at night :eek:. It's good you've been following the advice (guess it's easy to cut out caffeine if you're not a fan of it already). What time are you taking the Mirtazapine at now? Are you taking it at roughly the same time each evening, I mean? I wasn't sure when you said your mum was giving you the next day tablet early. My brain is finding that difficult to understand.

care more that I've been asking for a psychiatrist appointment to sort out meds since October and I've still got to wait until April. He also told me to wake up at 6 every morning - but if I do that I'll end up incredibly unstable or in hospital and seeing as the Mirtazapine is already leaving me always down and always hopeless, I don't need any extra pushes.

Guessing you're awaiting on the wonderful treatment of the NHS (National Health Service) then? All I can suggest is if it's troubling you very much that you demand to see someone, even a GP (General Practitioner) who has had experience with anti-depressants. I'm concerned that you have to wait so long. I think you're right to rest when you need to, and explain to the Pdoc that you think if you don't rest you will end up back in hospital. I also think it's really important to tell a medical professional you still feel down and hopeless. I don't think you need any extra stressors either, it sounds like you need someone to talk out this health plan with, who will actually listen to your concerns and fears. A :hug: or healing vibes for you Kas, if you want them.

I received similar advice about my sleeping too, with the waking up super early or getting up, even if you haven't had any sleep at all. Forcing yourself to stay awake the entire day. I don't really buy it as advice, I actually think it's dangerous, although I can see the point of resetting your body clock.

It's easy for me to say, but try not to feel bad or guilty about your sleep. You're trying to manage a mental illness, you're not being a layabout - do you know what I'm saying? I shift between hardly any sleep to sleeping all the time, so I empathise. I also know it's not because I'm lazy (although this is a trait I possess, sadly), but because I'm depressed, stressed out and exhausted. I think nightmares take their toll physically too, and sometimes that means I'm not getting a proper amount of rest/deep sleep.

I find I need about 10-12hours (sometimes more if I keep waking up) when I'm over the insomnia phase and into the over sleeping cycle. You're not alone, Kas.

[Edit: I also probably sleep for longer when I'm eating less/not eating enough to have a decent amount of energy.]

 

[Echo]

I have spent a year sleeping badly as you describe, though I have not been put on any medication. My herbalist gave me some heavy duty stuff which did help me to go off to sleep mostly, though by no means always, but I always woke several times during the night. In order to function the next day, in any way, I have often had to try to get an hour or so more sleep in the morning. So technically, I have often spent long hours in bed, though not much of it offering proper sleep.

Recently - about two weeks ago, I discovered that my bed, or lying flat on my back, is a major trigger for me. Do what I like to calm myself and prepare for bed, the minute I lie down on my back, bam, I'm triggered and my heart starts racing and I get palpitations all night. So now I get into bed sideways and I cuddle tight up to a pillow (a stand-in for a furry animal or comforting partner) and my sleep has alerted amazingly. If I'm triggered the story remains the same (now it is letting my cats out at night - opening the door at night finishes me off), but if I can get them them to stay in, I sleep normal hours; I feel like I have actually slept and I only wake maybe once during the night. It is a bit of a miracle for me. I wonder if there is anything about your bed, your posture, your room or your routine that is triggering you without you realising? Worth thinking about anyway.

 

[Kas_Can_Fly]

Thanks for all the replies. I think the big thing is I felt really upset by that social worker's response and I felt very guilty for it. I think I've always needed a lot more than most people when it comes to sleep.

I slept for DAYS at a time

I have this, especially before and after flashbacks or if I have been missing out on a lot of sleep - but rather than it being caused by the lack of sleep it's actually caused by rapidly deteriorating/very unstable mental health for me.

What dose of mirtazapine are you on?

30mg, it makes me very hungry within 20-30 minutes of taking it, if I don't eat I'm gnawingly hungry and can't sleep but if I do it wakes me up. I'm having fewer vivid dreams, hence waking up less and also the times where I do wake still I often can't remember the dreams which is very good. I'm going to try taking it just before my evening meal to remedy this.

When I was on Mirtazapine [which I took with sleeping tablets, although the NHS seems against using them now], I experienced: vivid dreams, mania (is that the rush feeling you're talking about? it includes a lovely fit of giggling and feeling light headed?

I have Zopiclone as well, but I only take it on rare occasions like if I haven't slept for days on end or I'm noticeably distressed by sleep (usually after a flashback) or the lack of it. As said above I don't get vivid dreams and mania doesn't really describe the rush I get - it really is like I've had a coffee or a full meal or both, it's as if I've gone from the natural wind down of the day to being at my most awake, not hyper or manic, just very awake. I definitely don't have giggling or light-headedness. On the contrary, I've been constantly filled with hopelessness and despair since I've been taking it, almost immediately overwhelmed by everything and even more unable to cope than normal and thinking about suicide and self-harm on a more than daily basis. The only good thing is I haven't felt bad enough to act on the feelings of suicide, which is the only reason I consider it might be doing something.

It sounds like you're having some trouble adjusting to it, or it working in the way you want it to, and everyone is different. Maybe it's not the right one for you or maybe your body still needs some time to get used to it.

If been on it either since the very end of December or the very beginning of January when I was an inpatient. Whilst I'm glad I'm not quite as bad as when I was taken in, I feel not that far from it and all the time, usually before I would get natural lifts where I wouldn't be entirely filled with despair, but now I'm always that bad even if I'm not acting on suicidal thoughts, it's there all the time. I need a break from it!

I was also advised to never drink caffeine after 6pm at night

Actually I voluntarily gave up caffeine at the end of last May, though I still have whatever is in chocolate from time to time as a "just in case" precaution. It's actually made no difference, but I don't miss it at all.

Guessing you're awaiting on the wonderful treatment of the NHS (National Health Service) then?

Hahaha!! How did you know :cautious: ?! To be honest I'm just going to wait to see the Psychiatrist, my GP has given me a number of medications which I haven't got on with and I want to discuss things (including the possibility of combining the Mirtazapine with something else so I'm not medless for any length of time). I would rather take 2-3 medications and them work for both anxiety and depression rather than making one or the other worse.

I received similar advice about my sleeping too, with the waking up super early or getting up, even if you haven't had any sleep at all. Forcing yourself to stay awake the entire day. I don't really buy it as advice, I actually think it's dangerous, although I can see the point of resetting your body clock.

Thanks for this!! I can do it for days or weeks on end and my body clock doesn't reset, I just go crazy(er).

[Edit: I also probably sleep for longer when I'm eating less/not eating enough to have a decent amount of energy.]

This too, thanks :)

I wonder if there is anything about your bed, your posture, your room or your routine that is triggering you without you realising?

I did have it worse before when I was sleeping on a bed. Now I sleep on the floor (with a pile of covers as a mattress for warmth and comfort). I always sleep on my front/side. I don't think there is, but thanks, I'll be sure to keep the idea in mind to see if anything is indeed triggering me. :)

Thanks everyone :)