It's Here! The Official Diagnosis For Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

[anthony]

Oh, and for those in doubt about what I've stated above, here is the ICD 11 beta draft of CPTSD diagnosis released in 2012: Link Removed

As you will read, they exclude PTSD and associate it as a personality disorder. The page points to the ICD 10 (current version) personality disorder: Enduring personality change after catastrophic experience.

There are 5 years though between the beta version above, and the final version which isn't public, due to be released in 2017. What actually comes out will be different, though the beta shows that we may see a diagnosis of CPTSD... but by current data, WHO are planning on making it a personality / behavioural disorder. Whether they change that to a stressor disorder and give it unique criterion.... wait and see.

But until at least possibly 2017, there is no CPTSD diagnosis... not unless you want to use the current proposed criterion, which says you have a personality disorder alone, and not even PTSD.

This debate is pretty much tiresome to be honest... and people need to find the facts, as I'm becoming a little tired and sound like a broken record about the facts of this proposed diagnosis.

 

[Lucycat]

As you will read, they exclude PTSD

Does this not simply mean that you can not have both PTSD and CPTSD ( or whatever they choose to call it) as CPTSD includes the core symptoms of PTSD anyway.

I know this debate irritates you Anthony, but the fact is I,and many others, do have the diagnosis regardless of whether it is invalid or illegal. It is on my case records... ( and did you not just know I would simply have to respond to this debate!:rolleyes:)

 

[anthony]

Does this not simply mean that you can not have both PTSD and CPTSD ( or whatever they choose to call it) as CPTSD includes the core symptoms of PTSD anyway.

Yes, it means you can't have both. No, the ICD version if you take a look, is nothing even close to similar in relation to PTSD symptom profiles. You're confusing proposed diagnosis running around the web, with actual diagnosis being looked at by WHO for inclusion in the ICD.

Again though, the proposed beta diagnosis was listed in 2012, 5 years from when the actual finished product is released. Who knows what changes are made in that time to any diagnosis.

If you wanted to look at the facts I've given, then those diagnosed with CPTSD, if it becomes valid, has little to do with actual PTSD at all, and everything to do with a personality disorder and behavioural problems. That is what the ICD's current path is focused upon. Not even close to PTSD, in a whole other realm of disorders, with psychopaths, sociopaths, and such personality disorder types.

I wonder how many are still going to want such a label attached to them then? Being placed alongside sociopaths, psychopaths, paranoids, schizoids, basically the personality of an emotionally unstable person. That is where the ICD is headed with CPTSD at this given time, published in beta for possible 2017 release.

Still want it?

People just don't get it, IMHO... as this is exactly where this was headed to begin with. Herman and Van Der Kolk have both been rejected because they both are trying to cross personality disorders with disorders general, Axis II with Axis I. The severity between them is massive in a medical viewpoint of mental stability. Axis II says you are a danger to yourself, to others, to society... Axis I says you just have some issues, but are otherwise ok. These experts wanted both to fit within Axis I, and this is why they've been rejected. You could have lesser in the extreme category, but not extreme in the lesser category... thus CPTSD could become an extreme, thus a personality disorder nothing similar to PTSD, and basically saying you're outright nuts, have massive emotional stability issues, are a danger to yourself, possibly others, and are not fit to function within society day to day. That is a personality disorder. Most are locked up in institutions, have vast criminal histories, serial killers and the list goes on and on. Personality disorders are extreme, thus they're not joked with or taken lightly.

This is where the ICD is headed with CPTSD, if you want that diagnosis.

 

[anthony]

To be perfectly honest, these rogue physicians using unspecified criterion, untested symptom profiles and thoroughly unproven diagnostic application, have brought this down upon themselves thus far, and even those they apply this label to with zero legal validity at this point in time. What are they honestly going to do if the ICD does continue their current path and put this beside the above personality disorders? Ignore the WHO's diagnosis and use the label, but still continue using unsubstantiated criterion, claiming the WHO is wrong, just like they say the APA is wrong? Who they're saying is wrong, is the majority of their peer group who weigh in on all diagnoses listed. See the issue? A minority or rogue physicians want something, but what they get may be not what they really wanted.

 

[user27357]

potato, potato, tomato, tomato, lets call the whole thing off.

or,

a rose is a rose is a rose

or,

a sows ear is a sows ear and not a silk purse does make.

 

[nycpeach1]

Okay, this got way out of hand due to my mistake. Please delete it. I did not mean to offend, minimize or challenge anyone's diagnosis. Perhaps Solara is right since I offended her and she feels I don't belong here. I was only trying to help (although I did it badly).

 

[Lady of Longbourn]

It's a forum @nycpeach1, discussions happen. I personally think it's very informative.

 

[Lucycat]

"Complex PTSD is a disorder that arises after exposure to a stressor typically of an extreme or prolonged nature and from which escape is difficult or impossible. The disorder is characterized by the core symptoms of PTSD as well as the development of persistent and pervasive impairments in affective, self and relational functioning, including difficulties in emotion regulation, beliefs about oneself as diminished, defeated or worthless, and difficulties in sustaining relationships."

This comes directly from the link you posted @anthony. I have highlighted my point in bold.

Sure I get there is time for it all to be thrown out or changed completely. I get that this doesn't exist - yet.

I also feel quite saddened by your reaction to it possibly being labeled a personality disorder. I don't understand why that is so dreadful. I do have a skewed personality. I do have unstable emotions. It was all caused by trauma at a very young age. I don't worry that PTSD means I have a mental disorder in the same 'group' as schizophrenia so why worry that psychopaths are in the same 'group' as possible CPTSD. Stigma.

You may decide that if this change ever happens that us argumentative lot will no longer be welcome on your trauma forum. That would be sad. The common ground is still the trauma.

 

[anthony]

I also feel quite saddened by your reaction to it possibly being labeled a personality disorder. I don't understand why that is so dreadful.

It's not dreadful to me, but the majority of people who want this diagnosis, they also state they don't have a personality disorder... and are quite loud that is all stress. I can also see how you're trying to focus on the stressor aspect in that writing, but near most mental disorders are due to some stressor. That doesn't make them all sit within the stressor category. Most personality disorders are based on profiles of high trauma in childhood, abuse, neglect, etc, yet they aren't stressor diagnoses.

The majority want this to be an extension of PTSD, and not a personality disorder. Ask a majority, and they associate heavy dissociation with PTSD, which to them equals CPTSD. They don't associate a personality disorder, which is actually the more accurate statement, such as BPD + PTSD, which adequately describes complex trauma sufferers. I believe this has been discussed to death as well over the years, being either BPD or DID + PTSD, both of which are personality disorders combined with a stressor disorder, to adequately cover the presenting issues. People don't often want BPD or DID though, because they're even more stigmatising than PTSD is... let alone the complications they can both present in day to day life, employment, legal matters such as custody of kids, and so forth.

Herman never wanted this to be a personality disorder, and certainly neither does Van Der Kolk... the two largest voices on this subject. They have fought so hard to be recognised side by side as an extension of PTSD, but the ICD is clearly isolating it from PTSD, yet they seem to use the name anyway.

To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if this just disappeared from the ICD 11 come 2017 for the various same reasons as discussed. Maybe they keep it and redirect to a personality profile. Time will tell.

@nycpeach1 this is just a discussion... that's what forums do... discuss things with all sorts of diverse opinions and beliefs. Please stop thinking in terms of right and wrong. Nobody here can say whether CPTSD will actually become a real diagnosis or not... not until 2017 when the WHO publish the final copy, and what criterion it actually has, and whether its a stressor or personality disorder.

 

[Friday]

@Lucycat & @anthony

I'm ADHD & PTSD.

ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder. In essence it's structural. It's part of who I am, and is who I was always going to be, and there is nothing that anyone did to cause it or could have done to prevent it. While a whole lot can be done to shape it's expression, symptomology is always present. Ditto all other neurodevelopmental disorders to date. The idea itself being architectural.

PTSD is a Trauma and Stressors disorder. In essence it was inflicted upon me. If I'd lead a trauma-free life with rainbows and lazy disinterested unicorns? I'd never have it. Something has to happen for my brain to switch gears. By definition.

(I have the 'some are born great whilst others have greatness thrust upon them' quote stuck in my mind at the moment). But the point being that they're 2 very different classifications for a reason. Inherent vs Acquired

My understanding

Not classifying (as suggested) CPTSD as a personality disorder isn't about stigmatizing other disorders (inherent, acquired, learned, etc.) . It's about first off taxonomizing correctly (darn platypus), and secondly not blame shifting. Not attempting to place the blame on the child/adult for not reacting as well on a continuum in relation to other children/adults who may have never experienced the same kinds of traumas... When, actually... If some abusive sadistic effing needaworseword hadn't beaten, raped, & otherwise abused or tortured them... They would never have (c)PTSD. It has nothing to do with personality. Nor is it about inherent, learned, or other disorders being better/worse, but different. Inflicted trauma & the brain's response to that stimulus over time. Apples & Oranges. Or axes. As the case may be.

<edited, I hope. Shall stop talking in any event>

 

[Lucycat]

It has nothing to do with personality

Sorry - I disagree. It has everything to do with personality. My personality is who I am. I am different from the person I would have been without trauma during my early development... of my personality.

There is stigma associated to almost all mental health diagnoses. Interestingly the ones that attract sympathy instead are the dementias. But that aside, most people will meet the stigma at some point. Personality disorders in particular attract more stigma as they are seen as flaws in the human being. Borderline personality disorder is sometimes called a wastebasket diagnosis. It was considered untreatable, but things are changing.

You say Apples or Oranges, but consider instead tomatoes and cucumber. Both salad vegetables. But hey lets not forget a tomato is a fruit. Whether you put a tomato in your fruit salad is up to you, but it will not change the way it tastes.

 

[anthony]

This is the exact pickle that exists in a minority to majority of physicians... let alone is discussed here... what @enough said... potato patato.

This is the silly issue, and with no legal, definable characteristics. They either need to drop it and move on, or list it and develop it over time... but telling people they have something that neither manual substantiates at present, uncool.