Me And Sympathy.

[Philippa]

I think I mentioned in another thread that I have trouble with sympathy, both giving and receiving it. I even hesitate starting this thread in case anyone feels sorry for me that I don't allow myself to receive sympathy.

I had many experiences of feeling like whenever I would be sympathetic to somebody who told me a story that was sad, they would end up manipulating me in some way, and I learned to equate sympathy with being something that leaves me vulnerable to being manipulated. It's kinda relevant to the post I just read by Anthony explaining how easy it is to give your sympathy to someone who may not be what they seem.

This has made me hesitate whenever I hear someone tell me a story of something going on in their lives that sounds like they want sympathy, especially when I can see from the other side of the fence as well. Sometimes, instead of giving them sympathy, I will be a bit mean and tell them straight that they are being a martyr, (if I perceive that) and that the person they are lamenting about didn't ask for their help in the first place...or whatever the scenario may be.

I feel like sympathy doesn't real help anything. Empathy does...compassion does, but sympathy doesn't. The "feel sorry for me" thing just kinda feels pathetic to me. I don't want people feeling sorry for me either...that makes me feel weak.

As a result though, I deny myself the opportunity to get sympathy when something has happened to me, and resist telling anyone in case they think I am wanting sympathy. This is a distortion, as I'm assuming that everyone thinks the same way as I do. Then when I see someone else getting sympathy for whatever their sad story is, I feel resentment towards them secretly, because no one gave me any.

The thing is, I think I'm right. Whenever I have given sympathy to a friend in the past, they have used that as a license to tell me all their problems, and never want to hear any kind of hard truth, just want me to tell them what they want to hear, and manipulate me into doing things for them that I don't necessarily want to do. Then if I don't give it to them I get accused of being mean or insensitive.

How do you find a balance between knowing when to give proper due sympathy, and when to hold off in case the other person may try and take advantage? Case in point, the woman I have been having trouble with recently, after the death of my cat.

She is always seeming to want my sympathy for something someone apparently did to her (victim), and there seems to be a never ending supply of people who are 'mean' to her...but without having been there, I hesitate to believe everything she tells me, because I've been in the room when people have supposedly been mean to her, and all I saw was her taking what they said the wrong way.

I naturally move away from giving her what she wants, because I do not want to give her that ticket to take me for a ride.

How do others think of sympathy here? I'm curious.

 

[Spiderallis]

I think sympathy gets mistaken for validation sometimes. It's a fine line between acknowledging how someone feels about a bad situation and opening the door to host a pity-party in their honor. It sounds like you're doing quite well to balance on that fine line, that's not easy.

There are people in the world who get hooked on sympathy. It's like a drug in a way, they'll remain in that victim mentality to keep getting their dose of sympathy. It's not helpful in healing or anything, but it dulls the pain for a short time. If it doesn't hurt, they've got no incentive to heal. It's a problem though, because they'll need more and more sympathy to numb the things they could be facing. I won't even go into the manipulative aspects, that's a sore point for me.

I really admire the level of insight you've shown in writing this post and many other things you've shared. From how you describe the woman seeking your sympathy, it sounds like you might be expecting more awareness from her than she's able to offer. Humans are funny creatures, we think others are much more like us than they really are. If the 'mean' things being said sound neutral to you, it could be a distortion in how she sees the world. It's like she's looking at things through a smeared lens- until she's ready to see that it's on her side of glass, she's not going to accept that the world isn't a dirty, cruel place. You're doing the right thing by not encouraging that- it may take a while to work, but you're helping her by not agreeing with the distortions.

 

[mamachick]

I think there is a fine line between empathy and sympathy as well. I think we have empathy when we can relate because of the same or similar experience, and sympathy is when we can feel the distress and relate to the person or group even though we have never experienced the same. A condition of sympathy is that we have to believe their sad situation. If you are leary and think you may be about to be manipulated, I can understand your thoughts. Also, I do not want sympathy. Yet we send out sympathy cards when someone looses a loved one to death.

The friend you speak of-it sounds like she would not benefit from sympathy because she is the one with the distorted view. Holding people accountable for their own beliefs and emotions is fair, and if you have witnessed this, I would not buy into this either. It would be unhealthy for you and likely make you feel dishonest. It sounds like if you told her what you witness, she would view that as being mean to her as well. I agree with spiderallis that it gets confused with validation at times. How can you even validate your friend when your experience is much different. I would not be able to. I would think that if she had a good therapist, the therapist could validate her-as the T could make the connection of how she perceives treatment today with something else she learned in her life. There is probably a correlation, but as friends I dont think we can go there.

I also do not think it is wrong to tell a friend that I dont know how to help them with this situation but have found help for similar situations by going to therapy. I think you are very wise Phillipa. I also think there are givers and takers. When I was in grad school with a group of 30 people, myself and 2 classmates had plans to do something one Saturday. Early in the morning I got the call that my quadropalegic nephew had been murdered in his home. My two friends came over to my house and sat the day with me as I awaited more details of the incident. I was very grateful for that and they showed sympathy, compassion and concern. When we returned to class, nobody addressed it with me or spoke a word of it. A month later, another classmates brother died in a car accident. She made a few calls to tell people when services would be. Everyone showed compassion for her. Two years later, I found myself sitting with her while she was drunk and talking about offing herself over missing her brother. I think the difference is that it was not that others did not care but did not know what to say because it was very gruesome and I am somewhat a private person. This other gal tells all and is dramatic and a bit histrionic. I was very sorry for her. At some point I admit I was sick of hearing about it, particularly when she was drunk. It felt like it was bringing me down and I admit that she never even acknowledged my nephews death. Im guessing there is a bit of this in all of us. I am uncomfortable with sympathy as well. Again, I think you are right on.

 

[Philippa]

Yes, I can see how I may have put that on her spideralis. She is much younger than me, but surprisingly older than she looks...and we have that in common. I am nearly 40 but I look like I'm still 24, or I've been told that by numerous people who usually are frozen still with their mouths gaping open when they learn my real age, and don't believe me when I tell them.

We both have 'beautiful' faces, and are slim, and we both have similar attitudes about things, though she is a lot more with the 'tude' than I am and prone to losing her temper...just as I was when I was her age...so it's probably no wonder I'm expecting that of her. She told me she has a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder, so I am still learning more about that one and what it means. I've had a couple of people advise me to run for the hills though.

I've realized that she is quite immature though, and started to realize that after years of thinking I am also immature, that I am actually quite mature now...which feels interesting. I had a dream last night that I actually looked my age...which was WEIRD! :D

But yes, I did point out to her that the person she thought was being mean to her was not...at least to my mind, but she says she's had so much bullying by women when she was a teenager, that I think she just sees that everywhere, even when it's not really there...which is sad, and scary for her. I tried my best to convince her, and thought she took my word for it at the time, but she has talked about it since and still believes that the girl in class was being a bully to her...nothing I can do once a person believes something.

Thankyou both for your input here.

I already feel as though she thinks I'm a Bitch for not giving her the sympathy she feels she needs so much of, and if she decides that I'm one of those 'mean' people too and leaves, well, it may be for the best!

Calling me at 7a.m to say she no longer wants to be on the planet is just not on. I said to her that the next time she is feeling this way, and it's just a passing feeling, to just wait until after 10a.m to tell me, or write it down, because I won't be taking calls like that at that hour, it's inconsiderate.

She has not replied to my letter, and I think it really pissed her off? She can be as pissed off as she likes. I'm there 100% for a friend who is feeling that low, but not when they are just priming me for manipulation later on...which is what I suspect is her motive...though I don't know for sure?

Also, GOD that is terrible what happened to your nephew Brat17. If that other lady was not even able to bring herself to include him in the conversation, then there's something a bit off there. Murdering a quadraplegic? O.k, I don't know him or what his personality was like, but really...who does that?

 

[mamachick]

Thank you Phillipa, yes-who does that. My nephew hired a new nurses aid for morning and evening care. He had gone to high school with the nurse. Her male cousin was a few years older and it was a small community. The guy was an addict and likely knew of my nephews meds. When the nurse opened the door, they struggled and he blew her away and then went to the bedroom and blew my nephew away. Then he came back to the door and shot his cousin some more. Took all drugs, coin collections and so forth. My nephew joined the Navy at 18 and after basic training, was paralyzed by drunk driver. He was 36 when he died-18 yrs as a quad.

Some think, nephew not as important as brother, I dont know, but he was born when I was 8 so I was the little babysitter/helper with him. By the time he was 2, I was dragging him off to the park and caring for him. I spent a great time with several nieces and nephews as a kid and teen. It was a month after a sequence of rapes by my therapist boyfriend as well. Which included some stalking behavior.

Borderline personality disorder is tough to deal with. The biggest fear is abandonment-yet they have pour boundaries and often sabatoge relationships and push others away. The often see things very black and white (you are wonderful or you are the devil). They require a lot of attention and are a lot of work. They often take and take and are very draining. You are very smart to protect yourself from boundary issues such as 7 am calls. It sounds like you are a good friend to her and if she gets mad, it is her loss.

 

[Philippa]

That's just awful brat. Were you close to him? And awful timing as well. You were already going through so much by the sounds of it. Life just isn't fair.

Yes, this woman even wanted me to escort her to the toilet in the middle of the night...because "she was scared". She's 24 mind you...and she needs someone to hold her hand to go to the bathroom?? The toilet is seperate to my bungalow, and the house I have to go into to go to the toilet is not very inviting I admit...but seriously?

 

[mamachick]

Sounds like you have your hands full with this friend, I have been there.

 

[Philippa]

She is what you would call "High maintenance.". :D

Oh and I hope I didn't sound sympathetic before...but it's hard. Ironic in a thread like this, I know.

 

[Spiderallis]

Brat17, you're a strong and smart person to handle that situation the way you did. Losing someone in general makes other worry about saying the wrong thing. It's even harder in cases of violence, that's a kind of hurt most people (thankfully) don't understand.

And Phillppa- it's up to you whether to continue the friendship. I wouldn't consider it an automatic 'run for hills!' when someone mentions Borderline. If she's working on overcoming it, you could probably relate to her fairly well. It may take a bit more effort than other friendships, I wouldn't advise a close relationship if you're not comfortable with setting boundaries. Saying "Do not call me before 10am, I find that inconsiderate" is a perfect example.

As for the bathroom thing, it reminds me of an old friend. She was sexually abused when she was young. I don't know how public restrooms fit into that, but she wasn't upset by them if I went along to 'guard' the door. We were practically joined at the hip though. She'd call me every hour on the hour when I was suicidal and I'd stay at her place sometimes so she wouldn't get scared of being home alone. It's not like she'd wake me up at night to go down the hall- it was just when we were out or at school.

 

[Philippa]

I guess I didn't think about it that way...although it's not like she is scared of all toilets...just the one in the house at my place. It can feel quite eerie at night. I don't know...I guess I just didn't expect to hear a grown woman ask me to escort her to the bathroom because she gets scared? I've never had anyone ask that of me, so it's outside of my experience, and she has not been sexually assaulted, though she has been through a lot of psychological and emotional abuse by her parents as a child.

She did not give any deeper meaning to why except that she found it spooky going in there at night. I do too, but hey...take a flashlight! We're grown women, not little kids...ok, ok, so we are adult children working hard to grow.

I'm not going to run for the hills, but it has made me take a step back and question the friendship. I'm not sure that I want to continue experiencing things like the disrespect and inconsideration that seem to really be prevalent. At least she knows where I stand with it all now, and it felt good to put up those boundaries. She is working really hard with her therapist, there's no question of that. I appreciate that about her.

 

[Abstract]

Hi Phillipa,

I have just skimmed through so hopefully haven't missed anything.

I won't answer about your friend as everyone else has done a great job but just wanted to touch on the bigger picture.

I also have distortions around this stuff too in a slightly different way and I have a split so have a side that counteracts it when it comes to others most of the time.

A few things occurred to me. One is if you are sure you differentiate between sympathy and empathy and if you are you possibly think of sympathy as pity.

The way you speak about sympathy seems as if you view it as someone seeing you as weaker or them superior in some way and that subtle inference comes with pity. Sympathy is essentially compassion and is about caring about what someone is feeling or has experienced but no necessarily being able to feel it with them. When we feel it physically with them then that is empathy.

If I am in a numbed state a full experience of empathy is denied me but I can still feel compassion for someone. It doesn't mean I think they are weak or weaker and it doesn't mean I separate myself from them and look down at their situation from a distance. It is just a recognition.

I thought feeling sorry for oneself was really bad and pathetic and playing the victim. Only in recent years have a realised that a lot of how I feel is because of my past. Part of it due to unsafe people manipulating me through sympathy and empathy, part of it as a result of family attitudes to emotions and how my emotions were treated and part of it as a result of my mothers use of martyrdom and victim playing as a weapon in itself.

I also realised that certain that a response of sympathy or empathy to certain things is normal and natural and linked to the release of emotions and the process of mourning. Part of denying myself any opportunity to receive it was a way to avoid emotions. That and two other things - the fear about safety and of manipulation and a form of continuing harsh and unhelpful treatment from my family but doing it to myself.

I noticed when you speak of someone manipulating you it almost seems as if you include just your responses/expressions of sympathy or empathy in that. Is that correct? Noone can force us to express something unless there is a threat to safety so we have a choice of what we express and when. It might therefore be worthwhile looking at why you express these things when you don't want to and possibly sometimes are not feeling what you express. When things are not genuine then we tend to feel resentment afterwards.

Even if someone is stuck in self pity and victim mode I think what can be helpful is to see the genuine cry for help behind it. Something I usually have to consciously do. Not in the sense that I have to just follow along and react and rather that it can then be easier to react in a way that is best for them rather than out of a reflex reaction to my own stuff. The response may look similar sometimes but what is behind is and how it feels to me is very different. Sometimes being heard properly is all that someone needs to move on and it is the lack of feeling heard that has then playing the same role again and again. Other times they need to get their fight back and need a good shove! ;)

On a personal front I spent a mass of years in therapy and got very little from it and only afterwards realised that one of the reasons for that was that I could not express what I was feeling or what I experienced as I any time I did any response I got I felt I manipulated it out of the t. Not only did that make me wonder how that would be used against me but it made me totally disbelieve anything said and make me feel vulnerable. I also never processed any of the pain. Just saying anything other than that I am fine has me dissociating as a result.

I try hard to just express things now when I can but when I try to discuss things these issues are a big problem still and there is a lot of self abuse inside.

Moving forward has partly been about practice for me and partly been about repeated reminders to myself that we are each responsible for ourselves. How people respond to me is their choice and how I respond to others is too.

 

[Philippa]

Abstract, I really appreciate everything you've given me here to think about, and I think a lot of it is accurate too.

At the moment I am a little frustrated, as I had typed out quite a bit to reply to you and then my hand slipped on a key that erased the whole thing...so I am going to just take a break before I reply this time.