Me And Sympathy.

[Philippa]

A few things occurred to me. One is if you are sure you differentiate between sympathy and empathy and if you are you possibly think of sympathy as pity.

I think this is true. It probably does have a lot to do with feeling weak though, but more than likely it would be how i learned from my parents I'd say. I thought I had made some leeway towards being able to push past these distortions, but I've learned that it doesn't seem to matter how much progress you've made in certain areas in life, they seem to crop up at some point to tell you there is still some work that needs to be done.

Sympathy is essentially compassion and is about caring about what someone is feeling or has experienced but no necessarily being able to feel it with them.

I think this is where I've been mistaken. I have been equating sympathy as different to compassion, and more of a "awww, there there." thing that doesn't actually help matters, but more of an attention seeking thing. It has to do with how I've been trained to few attention seekers I think. I spent half my time trying to be invisible as a teenager and early twenty something, and thought that people who want attention are someone unpleasant or unappealing...though I have started to question that thoughtform that society seems to propogate. My brother never had trouble with it...and he'd diss me about my own perceptions saying that people like attention and there's nothing wrong with that...which I guess is true.

When we feel it physically with them then that is empathy.

Thankyou for distinguishing those for me Abstract. It helped a lot.

If I am in a numbed state a full experience of empathy is denied me but I can still feel compassion for someone.

I usually can as well.

It doesn't mean I think they are weak or weaker and it doesn't mean I separate myself from them and look down at their situation from a distance. It is just a recognition.

I guess when I think about this particular person, it seems like she only calls me or wants to hang out when she wants to talk about all the people who have wronged her, or how f*cked her parents are, or how her boyfriend is not supporting her enough, and I start to question whether I'm getting the whole story...so when that happens, I tend to go into protective mode and wonder if I am just being used as a source of sympathy by someone without seeing things from the other side of the fence.

I'm aware that often in life when people are bitching about a boyfriend or some other thing, that it is only one side of the story...and if I asked the other person their view, it would be a whole different kettle of fish, and the person asking for sympathy is blind to some behavior of their own that is creating the conflict...which I sometimes get the feeling may be the case with this person.

I can feel compassion for anyone who has had terrible abuses put on them, or anything bad happen really, but when it becomes the sole source of the reason why they choose to spend time with me, then I start to question whether I am just being used to satisfy this persons need for constant sympathy. It's on an individual basis of course...I don't go around withdrawing compassion from people normally...if a person has had something bad happen, it is only natural to feel for them, or feel their distress and that compassion takes over.

I guess the bottom line is I am feeling confused as to whether this woman sees me as someone she needs for support only, and only calls on me when she needs that. I see her on facebook at parties with her friends, being a party animal and I can't help but think that she doesn't see me as someone she wants to have fun with, but just fills this certain role for her...and I want to be seen as someone she can hang out with and have fun with as well. I want to be invited to fun things.

I guess I don't really throw parties or have many friends who invite me to parties anymore...so I am missing that. She is much younger than me, and in that transition of coming from being a total party animal...which I miss in a way, to moving away from that...a process I went through many years ago.

It's not her fault I guess. She's just being her and having fun, and I'm the older woman who's been through it all before that she looks up to (but also seems to look down on at times too) and it makes me feel boring and like I'm just there for her to call when something goes wrong in her life and she needs support.

Maybe I'm just so out of touch with what it is to be a friend that I don't even recognize all this as 'normal'. Should I be honored that she views me in this way, instead of insecure that I'm only good for telling her problems too? Am I a bad person for admitting that I get sick of being that person everyone comes to because they know I'll listen?

I thought feeling sorry for oneself was really bad and pathetic and playing the victim. Only in recent years have a realised that a lot of how I feel is because of my past.

I think I have also felt this way and come to the same conclusions...but that doesn't seem to stop the conditioned training from surfacing every now and then, despite me having examined these things in the past and recognizing that I might be wrong about it.

Part of it due to unsafe people manipulating me through sympathy and empathy, part of it as a result of family attitudes to emotions and how my emotions were treated and part of it as a result of my mothers use of martyrdom and victim playing as a weapon in itself.

This sounds very familiar to me. I know it has a lot to do with how my family see things to do with emotional stuff, and it's a sign I guess that more work needs to be done on this subject.

Part of denying myself any opportunity to receive it was a way to avoid emotions. That and two other things - the fear about safety and of manipulation and a form of continuing harsh and unhelpful treatment from my family but doing it to myself.

This sounds about right. I tend to slip back into bottling emotions a lot in the last few years, despite having made some progress with it many years ago. The safety thing is definitely a part of it.

I noticed when you speak of someone manipulating you it almost seems as if you include just your responses/expressions of sympathy or empathy in that. Is that correct?

I'm not really sure what you mean here? Can you clarify it in a different way perhaps?

Noone can force us to express something unless there is a threat to safety so we have a choice of what we express and when. It might therefore be worthwhile looking at why you express these things when you don't want to and possibly sometimes are not feeling what you express. When things are not genuine then we tend to feel resentment afterwards.

I'm not sure where I gave the impression that I do give empathy or sympathy when I'm not really feeling it? If anything, my initial post was saying that I hold back from giving these things if I am not sure of the persons intentions for wanting them...which to me indicates more genuineness than giving it when I'm not really feeling that way. Maybe we are both misunderstanding something here? I'm not sure?

I do understand the basic message of what you are saying, and agree totally...I'm just not sure if it relates to me in this case?

Even if someone is stuck in self pity and victim mode I think what can be helpful is to see the genuine cry for help behind it.

I think that is the most understanding way of approaching it...it's just not something that I have really received much of myself, so when I see it my tendency is to feel a bit resentful that others can ask for it so easily, and I have such trouble doing the same, or have gotten nothing but ignored when I've tried to. I guess that's not a very selfless way to operate, but that's how I've felt at times.

When I have been in this mode I have usually been told to get over it, or ignored all together or looked at with a sigh of disgust and told what a victim I am, so that is how I learned was the normal response when behaving in this way.

Sometimes being heard properly is all that someone needs to move on and it is the lack of feeling heard that has then playing the same role again and again. Other times they need to get their fight back and need a good shove! ;)

Yes, this is true I think.

I try hard to just express things now when I can but when I try to discuss things these issues are a big problem still and there is a lot of self abuse inside.

I have a terrible time expressing my feelings, at the time. I feel so frustrated at not having made much progress with it and I'm nearly 40. I get jealous of women who can express themselves easily with words. My female friend is one of them, and has had a lot more help in therapy with this...and she's 10 years younger, so that may be part of it as well?

Moving forward has partly been about practice for me and partly been about repeated reminders to myself that we are each responsible for ourselves. How people respond to me is their choice and how I respond to others is too.

I sometimes forget that I need to remind myself of this. Remembering to remind myself is half the battle. :D

I wanted to say thankyou again Abstract for taking the time to type out your last post, and for all the insight it held for me. I really do appreciate it.

 

[Murakami]

I really like this conversation , cuz u both seem reflective about the processes we all experience about how we perceive ourselves and others. It made me think!

Learnt an interesting thing watching dating guru video seminars. I knew I was hopelessly outdated on the dating scene, so why not hear the opposite view as well?... Anyway. One psychologist talked about what he coined "Observing Ego". (YouTube it, if you want;-) I call it camera on the shoulder.

It's very simple really but very hard to do when all those emotional scarring literally distorts our perception. Am I able to take a as neutral view as possible when I'm a part of a conflict or disagreement? Can I watch that reel of myself and not be horrified? Am I able to give the other person credit for some of their stuff?

I think you do Phillipa, describing your situation. I recognised so well that sneaking suspicion someone would just milk my kindness. I know where that comes from, having a nonstop complaining hypochondriac sister. But my bad boundaries, letting myself be used by "friends" is my own wrongdoing. Or being overly helpful, offering friends my clothes, lending out expensive things, lol even my VISA card... I don't do that anymore, cuz nowadays I'm very conscious that my imbalanced self has a tendency to attract equally unbalanced personalities. Yes, I have cycled through my share of "bad boyfriends" believing I was kind.

Now I only allow non-toxic people into my life. By having healthy boundaries, it's easy to weed out people who only take, never giving. People who are takers are actually quite easy to spot. They usually have some complaint about something or someone doing them wrong. They are most often the victim. (Don't have to take responsibility or change anything if you're the victim, right?) But if you ask more questions about the situation, they usually are hazy about what really happened. Haha, now I overgeneralized, but you get the picture.

The thing I find more difficult lately are grey areas. Old dear friend suddenly acting weird, obviously wanting my sympathy. His gf from 7 years dumped him, cuz he couldn't make up his mind for over a year whether to marry her or not. He is in great pain now that he understands she's broken all contact. But I'm confused. He keeps moaning about loosing her, despite asking her to marry him before summer. Like she's cruel for letting him wait. But he didn't tell me she told him months ago, she's got new bf, she informed me today. I don't really know what to do in situations like that. Yea, I feel sorry for him, but on the other hand he isn't all that truthful. I try be diplomatic, but it's hard.

In general I have big ears and great sympathy for my closest people. At least as long as they OWN THEIR PROBLEM. I know it's transference, but if I hear they say or mean that someone else must fix their problem, they don't wanna take responsibility for their own situation. Then I feel I have to fix it or help or give advice, yea masculine survivor energy, there ya go!... and that's really MY problem.

A 25 years old friend of mine summed it up succinctly: "If they complain about something they can't do anything about... well that's... human. But when they start bitching about something the CAN change... that's really annoying!"

 

[Philippa]

I'm so glad it caused you to think Murakami. :)

My brother has always been the same as how you described yours...hypochondriac, constantly coming to me with his imagined "problems" (which could get pretty creative believe me...he even woke me up at 3 in the morning one time in a panic at the thought that he had gangrene in his leg.) :D He knew I was the only one in the family who wouldn't tell him to f*ck off.

I think men and women do tend to all have that in them to try and fix the problem, and often they don't understand that the person telling them, doesn't actually want them to fix the problem...they just want them to listen while they vent about the problem. Often venting is what helps the most...with many females I've noticed anyway, including myself. I can usually see my issue much clearer once I have gotten it off my chest.

I think we find it so hard to just allow people we say we love to sit with their own challenges, and show them the respect of considering them capable enough to work out their own issues. That is a huge mistake...the rescuing role. Often by trying to fix everything we are actually showing them real disrespect, without realizing it. People have the ability to sort their issues out...they just sometimes need a sounding board to bounce off of.

I agree about people not changing something they can change, but continue to complain about it...very tiresome, and very draining. It creates an unpleasant atmosphere, and literally pollutes the environment with neg energy.

Being honest with ourselves enough to own out own part to play in giving our own power away is the first step towards taking it back I believe. It sounds like you are well on the way towards that. Congratulations. :)

 

[cavy]

She told me she has a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder, so I am still learning more about that one and what it means. I've had a couple of people advise me to run for the hills though.

Please don't run for the hills,:( I have both PTSD & Borderline PD, I don't bite, however I do know where these other people are coming from though.

I have contact with all sorts of people diagnosed borderline, some are stuck unable to move forward & have no insight into how their behaviour affects others, these are sometimes the needy ones, the ones that crave sympathy and attention (validation) of who they are and how they feel. In my experience they are emotionally draining, and are unable to see that other people have problems too not just them!! If you are having a lot of symptoms at any time being around them when you are, can be unhealthy, stressful & make you worse. So looking after yourself first is important, if you aren't well yourself how can you support others.

Those who do have insight & have worked very hard to get it, try their best not to slip back into the black and white thinking. I hope I come into that catagory.;):D

I get really annoyed at people who refuse to try and stand on their own two feet, who sometimes behave like "diva's" expecting to always be rescued. By rescuing them it is only feeding into their unhealthy pattern of behaviour so they never learn how to change or whether their behaviour is acceptable, I have observed this on many occasions & it just creates a very negative gloom & doom atmosphere. This just then snowballs and the toxic mood spreads to everyone around them - not very condusive to a healthy mental state at all.:eek:

I tend to stay away from needy victim role people when I am very vulnerable or if I am fairly ok I will talk to them but I won't give them any attention for negative behaviour, how they act, what they say (I just change the subject again & again sometimes!!) etc. It may come across as rude but a bit of diplomacy often helps. You have to be cruel to be kind sometimes.

By having healthy boundaries, it's easy to weed out people who only take, never giving. People who are takers are actually quite easy to spot. They usually have some complaint about something or someone doing them wrong.

This is so true, their complaining is really annoying and emotionally draining. Everyone has their own problems in life and I wish these people would remember that. I tend to keep my problems to myself, airing my dirty laundry out in public is just not me.;)

 

[Murakami]

(...)
I thought feeling sorry for oneself was really bad and pathetic and playing the victim. Only in recent years have a realised that a lot of how I feel is because of my past. Part of it due to unsafe people manipulating me through sympathy and empathy, part of it as a result of family attitudes to emotions and how my emotions were treated and part of it as a result of my mothers use of martyrdom and victim playing as a weapon in itself.

This rang a bell to me. My adoptive mother uses guilt as a tool to get what she wants. In the more extreme cases it evolves into name-calling, where I'm "a bad, cold hearted, un-loving person". I think this has resulted in me avoiding people if they ask things from me and vice versa. I have no trouble voluntarily giving anything, childishly enough, if it was my own idea. Cause then I don't feel pushed or manipulated into doing something. Drive me into a corner and I skip town.

I know the triggers are different from person to person. But to me the problem about giving and receiving is two-folded and interlaced. I CANNOT ask anyone for help. Cause when I ask for something, it might for some reason or the other not happen. And then I will be disappointed, making me feel vulnerable. So I go to extreme lengths to avoid asking for help. Did I call anyone when I couldn't walk due to a rare blood inflammation in my legs? Nooo...The "obvious" solution was to suffer in silence for 3 days before I went to the doctor and she immediately kidnapped me to the hospital. I really don't wanna pose any trouble for anyone. I easily feel I'm "too needy", but it only results in me feeling resentment, cuz no-one cared for me. Which is kinda stupid, since they didn't know about my predicament in the first place. It's what I call a thoughtrap.

I've come to realize that even though I dislike to be "weak or needy" or "feeling sorry for myself" to my conscious self. Or what my T refers to as "big sister". She's the rational, efficient go-doer. The other part of me, what T calls "kid sister", feels very sorry for herself indeed. She is the one who splurges on high tech gadgets or designer shoes, in order to numb my system down or when I'm having weak moments. She is the one who keeps making excuses for being too tired.

My T keeps reminding me to try connect those two dimensions of me. To literally speak to the afraid "inner child" and ask what she really wants (besides real italian icecream and that lovely designer hand bag). Cuz I understand the addictions are just a shallow way to satisfy my needs not being met. I never learnt how to ask for something from my family. Either my wishes were ignored or rejected. I became the invisible "good grades, no trouble girl".

Having a balanced response of giving and receiving is crucial to sustain a longterm relationship, I think. So I'm currently training hard to force myself to ask my bf for little favours. He even said a bit annoyed once: "Can't you please ask me to do it for you, why do you have to do everything yourself? I would be only happy to do that task for you, cuz then I would feel I have a place in your life. You need to train me, ya know!"

Sometimes being heard properly is all that someone needs to move on and it is the lack of feeling heard that has then playing the same role again and again.

Yea, I second that being heard is the way to go. But it also involves daring to be authentic...warts and all. I find it hard to tell my friends all the gory details. I'm afraid they will think I'm too crazy. I tell about deep stuff but I edit out details.

On a personal front I spent a mass of years in therapy and got very little from it and only afterwards realised that one of the reasons for that was that I could not express what I was feeling or what I experienced. (...) I also never processed any of the pain. Just saying anything other than that I am fine has me dissociating as a result.

You are not alone in this, if any consolation. I've come to the conclusion that since words are one of my ways to cloak and hide, I need a T with a good BS rader. Who can kindly remind me on what I wanna spend the prescious 60 minutes on. For me going to T once a week wasn't enough during hard periods. Going 2-3x a week with group therapy as well, was hard, but it did break down my resistance. Expressive therapy with painting and role playing has worked surprisingly well to tease out powerful moments for me.Actually daring to feel the pain is the hardest part for me. I can talk and think about it in good moments. But allowing myself to feel it without being afraid I'm gonna rip apart is hard.

Someone recently tipped me about Brené Brown "Vulnerability Ted" and her two talks about vulnerability and shame on TED.

It moved me a lot. Highly recommended! Watching her talks made me amazon her books. I'm gonna start with Gifts of Imperfection and see where it goes. There was a book bout self-compassion by another author that also looked promising.( cant link here, get anti spam msg)

Because the major thing that's holding me back from further growth is my self-doubt and feeling of worthlessness. Ok I know where it comes from, but what can I DO about it? ;) Life is way too short limping around being emotionally cripple.

 

[Murakami]

I'm so glad it caused you to think Murakami. :)

My brother has always been the same as how you described yours...hypochondriac, constantly coming to me with his imagined "problems" (which could get pretty creative believe me...he even woke me up at 3 in the morning one time in a panic at the thought that he had gangrene in his leg.) :D He knew I was the only one in the family who wouldn't tell him to f*ck off.

Well, takers do know how to target. I think its the healthy boundary thing. If you say "no" a couple of times, they seldom approach again. Depending on who and what situation it is, I sometimes say no to meet someone just to let them understand I'm not on 24/7 call for them. I'm also conscious about friends who keeps changing plans last minute. If they do this more than 2 times in a row, I just stop contact them, and let them take the lead.

I think men and women do tend to all have that in them to try and fix the problem, and often they don't understand that the person telling them, doesn't actually want them to fix the problem...they just want them to listen while they vent about the problem. Often venting is what helps the most...with many females I've noticed anyway, including myself. I can usually see my issue much clearer once I have gotten it off my chest.

Guilty! $S It's sooo hard for me to just listen without commenting. For me commenting is a way to show the other person that I not only listened to what they said, but also understood it. But I do understand now, that it might not be taken that way. He/she might feel judged, especially if the comment also involves an unsolicited advice. Ty for making this very clear to me now! :D

I agree about people not changing something they can change, but continue to complain about it...very tiresome, and very draining. It creates an unpleasant atmosphere, and literally pollutes the environment with neg energy.

Must admit I got a really short fuse for 3rd time complaining about the same stuff. Without they seem to digest or understand what they are going through. It's just emotional vomit. Can't stand it. Hmm, maybe I'm doing a jungian thing here lol. I resent myself when I'm talking about the same thing over and over with my T. Ouch!

 

[Philippa]

You sound very similar to me in all respects to what you stated in your above post. I am the same with people who change plans at the last minute, and let go of a friendship recently, when this started to happen too often for my liking. This particular woman was ONE block away in her car coming to visit me one afternoon, and suddenly decided to turn around and drive home?? She admitted it was strange of her to do that, but still...??

I've even lost the plot at my own mother for constantly complaining to me about my father, but never doing anything about it. I couldn't help but feel a bit responsable though when she finally did leave him...after I basically told her to stop telling me about it and do something constructive. :D Ooops.

 

[Philippa]

Just thought I'd post an update, if anyone is interested... So, the woman I was having the issue with finally replied to my letter expressing my feelings of being disrespected and not considered... and boy did she lash out! Basically I was told that I'm a terrible, mean person for only thinking of my own feelings and not putting hers first, which is the pot calling the kettle black! She just vomited all her own projections onto me for an essay length letter where I was called everything from an ungrateful user to a Narcissist, which is hilarious! I felt really drained and she brought my whole vibe down.

 

[Murakami]

Well, the leopard can't change it's spots. Good on you for standing up for yourself! Besides now you got a clear answer considering what kind of friend she wanna be.

Watched second episode of Survivor yesterday, the reality castaway show. Very interesting to watch group dynamics. Someone described another contestant something like this: "You can only fake it to a certain extent. He lasted a few days, then the elements got to him, and now he's showing his true colors".

I support your weeding out, although sometimes it can be hard. Good job!

In the end it's about not repeating abusive patterns in other areas of life. It is very hard for me to teach myself love and respect when I let others walk over me.

 

[cavy]

Phillipa, wow what a reply.

She just vomited all her own projections onto me

This is the best description of what she wrote in a nutshell, the quote that immediately sprang to mind is "I think she doeth protest too much", she is basically describing herself to a T and is probably not even aware of it.:laugh:

Well it sounds that cutting the dead wood out of your life is having a theraputic affect on you - you still have your sense of humour.;)

 

[Philippa]

I think so too cavy, though she would argue that I am the one who is describing myself to a T. She tried to make me think that I'm the one who can't see what a Narcissist I am. I've never seen anyone lose it so much as this woman did!

 

[cavy]

Don't be so hard on yourself - I should take my own adivce - you are the result of a person who has survived trauma, not a Narcissist.;):hug: