General Mirroring

[Breeze]

I haven't been on here for quite a long time but have always found a lot help and support for which I am most grateful. I just have a question please about a friend who has chronic PTSD of many years standing but I am also now wondering if it may be something else as well as this. He told me recently that he has no sense of self and doesn't know who he is. When he is around others he copies their behaviour and acts like them. I've read of this before with people who have borderline personality disorder but I didn't know if it was also a symptom of PTSD or not? His PTSD is from sexual abuse when younger then what he experienced in the military. I just wondered if the above symptom was anything to do with PTSD or as I felt possibly something else. Thank you very much.

 

[Nam]

You are quite the friend for him to share.

I know this well. I don't really mirror though. I just know what behavior is acceptable, but it narrows down my choices of what I want to do. Going to new places is pretty scary.

This going forward is simply my opinion learned from my experiences. When trauma happens so young when he's trying to discover who he is, and a person close to him exploits the self he is becoming evolvs him into a nothingness. He then can turn into Anything.

These are traits of complex ptsd but only a pro can diagnose him.

He's carrying a heavy load. I hope he can eventually put it down and sort through it. It has to be exhausting.

 

[Anarchy]

The emptiness and feelings of lack of a defined identity do constitute symptoms of the construct that is BPD. Though without other symptoms such as attachment and abandonment problems, mood / emotional dysregulation, compulsive behaviours, black and white thinking.... being present in the required proportions, it wouldn't qualify for a diagnosis of BPD on its own.

The question is, whether in real people (as opposed to diagnostic manuals), BPD exists seperately from complex childhood trauma, or whether the group of behaviours and characteristics that BPD is short hand for, are part of the broader group of symptoms of a complex or developmental trauma response.

Bessel van der Kolk lists about 15 seperate studies finding a very large proportion of those diagnosed with BPD, reporting childhood trauma (about 78% of them). Arguably, what they have is PTSD

You've already stated that your friend was abused as a child - there's the trauma.

Unless he actually wants to go collecting diagnoses (like some sort of stamp collection), the two of you can get some sort of indication of whether BPD does describe him or not and then consider how he might want to proceed.

A diagnosis of BPD is not without potentially big costs for no real gain: the diagnosis can come with some big stigma and prejudice attached (difficult, manipulative, liar, un treatable, refer rather than treat, etc, all BS), and the treatments are no different than they would be for those particular symptoms in any of the dozen or so other overlapping diagnoses that people with complex childhood traumas end up being diagnosed with.

References for both the stigma and the treatments would be Herman; Trauma and Recovery, and Gabriella Balf's presentation at the NEA BPD conference.

 

[grde]

Narcissist and covert narcissist do the same thing. I had an ex who was a covert narcissist and he had the exact same issue. He realized borrowed different identities to fit the time and place over his childhood and early adulthood. Any solid literature on narcissist and psychoapaths provide further detail of this. Of course many borderlines are similar. That's why they are all grouped together in the DSM.

 

[Anarchy]

Of course many borderlines are similar. That's why they are all grouped together in the DSM.

a good proportion of the people posting on this site have at some time received a diagnosis for BPD. I see very little evidence of psychopathic or narcissistic behaviour here - as I wrote above:

A diagnosis of BPD is not without potentially big costs for no real gain: the diagnosis can come with some big stigma and prejudice attached (difficult, manipulative, liar, un treatable, refer rather than treat, etc, all BS)

 

[Nam]

Would a narcissist share this information? For what gain?

 

[Breeze]

Thank you for your thoughts so far. When I was on here before, as I've seen suggested to many people, I went to see a counsellor myself but I'm afraid I didn't find that of much use for me personally at all. I will give a little more information as this person is now in his 60s and has been through therapy several times through the years and so I don't think he will bother again and as he said to me at one point - I am what I am take me or leave me!

I think for me while I do feel they may well be PTSD problems for him because he doesn't sleep well and has nightmares at times and does use the silent treatment while having casual chat on the internet he also uses it as a punishment to take his inner feelings out on someone, usually me. I found it odd he once said that he didn't take out his issues on his family which I found most rare for a PTSD sufferer. I did know his wife saw the silent treatment and would have done the nightmares too.

We have had a roller coaster of a friendship with it ending many times due to how things have been and I will admit my own health has suffered with a couple of well meaning friends asking me to get out as lately I don't feel I even want to leave the house. The problem is, he has recently entered a new relationship and this woman seems to think he is a really fun person. He has told her he has PTSD from the Army but usually says he has trouble in crowds and the nightmares but nothing else. By the same token I am subject to a totally different person and on Friday I broke and lost my temper. He didn't understand why so I emailed him being very specific but kind in what I said to try and explain things and how others see a different person to the one I do - they have no idea at all.

The worst time I'd say was last year when he shut me out for 5 months. He also played with my mind during that time by turning social media messages from read to unread and while ignoring me, he was out at parties enjoying himself no matter what he was feeling inside - I was the one he took that out on. He then came out of it and told me all about what had happened. Something had come up from his abusive past which had totally thrown him and he took it out on me, he just briefly said sorry for what he had done to me.

There are symptoms of some other disorder but as to if I should give it a name or just see him as a person with a lot of troubles which very few are aware of. It's very hard for me knowing what to do and how he is with me and I asked yesterday why me? He pays people attention to get back something for himself. The silence I'm well aware of but he did say when his wife was ill he 'turned off' his PTSD to look after her. I found that strange as I'd not known anyone be able to turn it off before.

He does have what I would call bad social skills but again, very good at covering them up. I'll ask him to text and he will ignore or send a message when he knows I'm not on the computer, if annoyed things like this are worse. There must be others who have seen how he can be and it is all about him. Oddly, we have broken up loads of times but always got back together. I have told him I have asked on a forum I've read since I've known him about the issue of not knowing who he is and I'd let him know, he said ok. He said he will contact me today about the things I've talked to him about.

I think perhaps it is some kind of PTSD but also perhaps a lot more issues with it, I do walk on eggshells and use BPD communication methods when talking to him which help but others have an easy time of it like he was an ordinary person, it isn't like that for me.

 

[Breeze]

Anarchy, I can't thank you enough! I've done some research into developmental trauma and it seems to fit in so many ways! All I have read so far on the subject I have seen in the friend I know - including repeated patterns of what happened when he was a child in adult relationships, so many things.

Thank you so very much for putting that into my mind, you have helped me greatly.

 

[Justmehere]

something had come up from his abusive past which had totally thrown him and he took it out on me, he just briefly said sorry for what he had done to me.

How did he take it out on you?

There are symptoms of some other disorder but as to if I should give it a name or just see him as a person with a lot of troubles which very few are aware of.

Are you a clinician? If not, I would be very careful about taking things to the degree where you are attempting to diagnose him yourself. If you are a clinician, I would be even more careful as loved ones can often misdiagnose fellow loved ones.

He also played with my mind during that time by turning social media messages from read to unread and while ignoring me, he was out at parties enjoying himself no matter what he was feeling inside - I was the one he took that out on.

By shut out, do you mean you broke up? And he continued to have a social life after you broke up? If that is what happened, I'm not sure that is a sign of pathology but a possibly healthy way to cope with pain. if it is PTSD related, shut outs commonly happen with the closest people, because those are the most vulnerable and intimate relationships. It's easier to engage more distant relationships. It's generally not a manipulation even though most supporters seem to generally feel that it is. He may be the exception to that.

He does have what I would call bad social skills but again, very good at covering them up. I'll ask him to text and he will ignore or send a message when he knows I'm not on the computer, if annoyed things like this are worse. T

How do you know he is intentionally sending him a message when he knows you are not online?

He didn't understand why so I emailed him being very specific but kind in what I said to try and explain things and how others see a different person to the one I do - they have no idea at all.

You are adamant he has poor social skills. That may be true. Some would consider it poor interpersonal skills to email a partner, a loved one, about an emotional disagreement. SO MUCH can be taken the wrong way on text and email. It's been said that 80% of communication is non-verbal, and not only is it non verbal, but when it is on email, the other party can read so much into it. I know a lot of non-PTSD people who do not have poor social skills who never work out disagreements or emotional matters on text or email, or who generally suck at responding to text or email. This is especially true for email.

I am beginning to feel like you possibly over-pathologize him a bit while overlooking your own role in the problems in the relationship. You have chosen to date and break up with and date and break up with the same guy, instead of finding someone with greater emotional capacity to be there, consistently and steadily. I think it is great that you are working to accept him as he is, and not change him, but I am a little concerned thath your way of trying to cope with his behaviors, which are exhausting no matter the cause, is too much focused on finding this or that mental disease process to explain them. Maybe you are over pathologizing because if is a mental disease that makes him t his way, it will hurt less when he does it?

It's hard to say either way based on what you have communicated here. It does seem clear that neither of you are interested in getting therapeutic support. I would like to suggest that you re-consider getting support for yourself to look into why you are drawn to a relationship with someone you feel has more illnesses going on than he is willing to work on or deal with and someone that you feel is intentionally manipulating you so much and so often. If he is really trying to manipulate you this much for so long, why do you stay?

All of this being said, if he is taking out any of his symptoms or anger or anything else on you in any way that puts your safety in danger, drop everything and run from the relationship. Whatever is going on for him, it's not an excuse to abuse you. Period. Be safe.

 

[Breeze]

Justmehere - I'm so terribly sorry I think I've made a terrible mistake posting on here. I haven't explained myself well at all and it's a great shame I can't delete the thread, if I could, I certainly would. I'm sorry you feel as you do and that I have poor interpersonal skills, but I would have to go into far more detail and you would understand then, but I don't wish to reply or carry this on any further. Thank you for answering, just see this a mistake on my part. Thank you but i'll leave it there. Kind regards.