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My T Thinks Therapy Is Making Me Worse
- Post starter Jane.l
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It's something I've been very uncomfortable with, and still am to a large extent, but some of it has been helpful in understanding and explaining some of my thoughts and behaviours. I still find it very unsettling though so I'll join you in the weird club ;)
Just a small thought here @Jane.l , not sure if it's at all helpful.
I have read everyone's responses, & I hesitate to include anything as I don't have a T (for several reasons), & I feel kind of 'stupid' to say it. I only humbly offer an opinion as someone who's struggled with ptsd 3/4 of my life, & SI, & most of the other commonalities so many of us share.
I had a friend in a helping profession I disclosed a lot to (big for me because I have not done so & have no family support), but I just learned from what I've read they say disclosure is burdening & stressful & even potentially damaging. Like you, I realize I likely have abandonment & loss issues, & peculiar to myself I learned from as soon as I could grasp it as a child (probably about 4 years old) that it was a 'really bad/ damaging' thing to cause stress (family members were, & my dad used to get very ill- severe jaundicing. He had undiagnosed advance cancer but that's besides the point, since it was undiagnosed it just seemed " A causes B" (ie more stress-> 'trouble'.) So I equate needing or asking with I'm going to cause the illness/ death of someone. At least I've learned that much, knew it was always my 'fault' to not 'say' anything).
Anyway- sorry to speak of myself, what I am trying to say is like you, that I also relate to, or despite struggling, feeling I was still getting 'somewhere', since we know ptsd is most often still a struggle. Everything that gets 'processed' is a struggle too. In some ways we can't win; avoidance causes pain, not avoiding does too. (Even I believe Anthony said on a thread going through it (processing) is even worse than the first time (living through/ surviving it) ). But there was some modicum of 'hope' I was going in the right direction, but perhaps unfounded. Still, it felt better than not having 'hope' (even though I guess I wouldn't have called it that). Perhaps not feeling like such a write-off?
Like you, I could rarely get an answer to what I asked,. So knowing that, & knowing what I read/ learned, I 'asked' by e-mail but got my answer in person, they told me 'take care' &, they seemed relieved. (Ouch. :( ) I included the caveat if it was better that I would understand the answer if there was no response, & I was clear about it (of course there wasn't, but I knew with pretty much certainty after that). Ideally, I would rather hear even what I would rather not hear in direct words, but some people can't, for whatever reasons, or just don't want to, or perhaps don't care, Idk. Who truly knows. Funny thing, as it's usually 'my job' not to be able to speak. ;) But I know that's how they are, so I accepted that.
Needless to say however, though shameful to me & disheartening in regards to any hopefulness as to getting out of the grips of ptsd, it is still helpful because what trumps everything is knowing if there is confirmation that it is causing grief. I don't want that. It is good to know the truth. No doubt ptsd is lousy beyond words.
I realize with a T it's different in that it's a business arrangement, & your money you are investing. But it's my experience we already have enough doubt & shame +/or guilt etc that we don't, or shouldn't, introduce more. Much comes from dealing with the traumas themself. And people are just human, T's as well. As @scout86 said, it's not your fault. Best to determine, & carry on. :hug:
I have read everyone's responses, & I hesitate to include anything as I don't have a T (for several reasons), & I feel kind of 'stupid' to say it. I only humbly offer an opinion as someone who's struggled with ptsd 3/4 of my life, & SI, & most of the other commonalities so many of us share.
I had a friend in a helping profession I disclosed a lot to (big for me because I have not done so & have no family support), but I just learned from what I've read they say disclosure is burdening & stressful & even potentially damaging. Like you, I realize I likely have abandonment & loss issues, & peculiar to myself I learned from as soon as I could grasp it as a child (probably about 4 years old) that it was a 'really bad/ damaging' thing to cause stress (family members were, & my dad used to get very ill- severe jaundicing. He had undiagnosed advance cancer but that's besides the point, since it was undiagnosed it just seemed " A causes B" (ie more stress-> 'trouble'.) So I equate needing or asking with I'm going to cause the illness/ death of someone. At least I've learned that much, knew it was always my 'fault' to not 'say' anything).
Anyway- sorry to speak of myself, what I am trying to say is like you, that I also relate to, or despite struggling, feeling I was still getting 'somewhere', since we know ptsd is most often still a struggle. Everything that gets 'processed' is a struggle too. In some ways we can't win; avoidance causes pain, not avoiding does too. (Even I believe Anthony said on a thread going through it (processing) is even worse than the first time (living through/ surviving it) ). But there was some modicum of 'hope' I was going in the right direction, but perhaps unfounded. Still, it felt better than not having 'hope' (even though I guess I wouldn't have called it that). Perhaps not feeling like such a write-off?
Like you, I could rarely get an answer to what I asked,. So knowing that, & knowing what I read/ learned, I 'asked' by e-mail but got my answer in person, they told me 'take care' &, they seemed relieved. (Ouch. :( ) I included the caveat if it was better that I would understand the answer if there was no response, & I was clear about it (of course there wasn't, but I knew with pretty much certainty after that). Ideally, I would rather hear even what I would rather not hear in direct words, but some people can't, for whatever reasons, or just don't want to, or perhaps don't care, Idk. Who truly knows. Funny thing, as it's usually 'my job' not to be able to speak. ;) But I know that's how they are, so I accepted that.
Needless to say however, though shameful to me & disheartening in regards to any hopefulness as to getting out of the grips of ptsd, it is still helpful because what trumps everything is knowing if there is confirmation that it is causing grief. I don't want that. It is good to know the truth. No doubt ptsd is lousy beyond words.
I realize with a T it's different in that it's a business arrangement, & your money you are investing. But it's my experience we already have enough doubt & shame +/or guilt etc that we don't, or shouldn't, introduce more. Much comes from dealing with the traumas themself. And people are just human, T's as well. As @scout86 said, it's not your fault. Best to determine, & carry on. :hug:
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- #52
@Junebug thanks for your post - yes there is way too much doubt, shame and guilt involved - so hard - have you never had a T ? Did you not ever think it was worth a try? ( sorry that's just me being curious ) mind you I am not sure I have a T right now :( - or maybe I have two ! :sick:
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- #53
Seasounds
Diamond Member
@Jane.l
Your therapist, being in the 'privileged position', ( i.e. you need T more than T needs you) can indicate or say, that they don't want to continue with the relationship of therapy. Due to the therapist's personal short-comings or due to 'not seeing improvement', the T may be in both a personal and ethical spot (i.e. refer clients when therapy doesn't seem to be helping, or when the therapist doesn't know what else to do.)
From what you've said, about yourself and your therapist, these are options I'd consider:
I'm sorry that your therapist isn't able to be solid for you, during your dark patch. From being in a similar circumstance a few years ago, I understand. Short version, your getting signals he is not feeling successful. I'd respect his signals, and not ask him any questions about his process.
Your therapist, being in the 'privileged position', ( i.e. you need T more than T needs you) can indicate or say, that they don't want to continue with the relationship of therapy. Due to the therapist's personal short-comings or due to 'not seeing improvement', the T may be in both a personal and ethical spot (i.e. refer clients when therapy doesn't seem to be helping, or when the therapist doesn't know what else to do.)
From what you've said, about yourself and your therapist, these are options I'd consider:
- Put yourself in the 'locus of control' and powerful position, that helps most PTSD folks; start looking for a new therapist, before officially ending therapy, with your current T.
- Ask your friends, doctors, and therapist for referrals.
- Know that if you mention suicidal ideation, most therapists will either, step away, in one form or another (like not asking you questions about it, ignoring your words all together, tell you that they want to stop therapy, and/ or refer you on).
- As us PTSD folks are often good at being honest with our thoughts, and may not see that 'saying we would like to die, or having thoughts of killing ourselves' are often reporting a level of desperation; therapists are bound to take it realistically.
- Realistically, means assessing you for suicidal ideation, and maybe be puttiing you on a 72 hour hold.
- If it can feel 'true for you', you might see if you can accurately describe your despair without using any words that trigger necessary professional action, on your therapist's part. Say "I'm overwhelmed", vs "I feel suicidal".
- Know that by finding another therapist, that you may be breaking an old habit. It is a healthy action to move away from a situation, that is not hospitable to you.
scout86
VIP Member
I've been gone most of the day & just got home a bit ago. I'd like to add that I really think you might be on to something when you wondered if your T's history with depression makes some of what you're trying to deal with difficult. For example, how do you convince someone else that suicide is a bad idea, when you think it might be a good idea for YOU? It's not you're job to sort out his issues. It sounds like he's been very good in a lot of ways and a lot of situations. But, we ALL have our strengths and weaknesses and maybe these areas are among his. It's hard to admit that sort of thing, you know?
Going back to the horse analogy. There are things I'm good at and things I'm not good at. There are places where I'm definitely over my head. The best thing I can do, as a professional, is recognize that. Sometimes, by recognizing your limitations, you can find the resources to stretch yourself, and grow, and acquire new and approved limitations. Sometimes, you'd better just get more help before you screw things up beyond all repair.
You're thinking about this, which seems like it's good. You're seeking information, planning, and taking some control of your situation. All of that is good, right? So often, with PTSD anyway, it seems like we're just reacting to stuff. I know, myself, lots of times I don't really "think" at all, I just react. You ought to feel good about yourself,even though you're stressed and concerned, you're THINKING your way through this. I think that's pretty cool!
Going back to the horse analogy. There are things I'm good at and things I'm not good at. There are places where I'm definitely over my head. The best thing I can do, as a professional, is recognize that. Sometimes, by recognizing your limitations, you can find the resources to stretch yourself, and grow, and acquire new and approved limitations. Sometimes, you'd better just get more help before you screw things up beyond all repair.
You're thinking about this, which seems like it's good. You're seeking information, planning, and taking some control of your situation. All of that is good, right? So often, with PTSD anyway, it seems like we're just reacting to stuff. I know, myself, lots of times I don't really "think" at all, I just react. You ought to feel good about yourself,even though you're stressed and concerned, you're THINKING your way through this. I think that's pretty cool!
@Jane.l
-- hello again.
I just read a bit of a really in-depth article that includes EMDR and dissociation information.
This group in the Netherlands has really done amazing stuff. (I love the Netherlands, great country and people.) However I find it hard to read a lot of this at once -- don't know if you do too... too much to take in at once for sure.
If this feels overwhelming to read a bit of, please wait until you are with a good new T to even think about reading more.
However on p. 89 top left, it sounds like people need to modify the standard EMDR protocols a lot if someone has complex trauma, dissociated "emotional parts" and so on.
https://www.myptsd.com/gallery/-pdf/1-78.pdf
I wonder if your current T really didn't get enough training to deal with complex trauma in EMDR and such? All the same, it's not your job to train him!!!
Understanding of this stuff and EMDR itself are all pretty new; I bet it's taking a while for information to filter out to all practitioners, they have to learn it from conferences and papers and such, and there are many, many conditions that they treat -- thus the preference of many here for a "trauma therapist"...
-- hello again.
I just read a bit of a really in-depth article that includes EMDR and dissociation information.
This group in the Netherlands has really done amazing stuff. (I love the Netherlands, great country and people.) However I find it hard to read a lot of this at once -- don't know if you do too... too much to take in at once for sure.
If this feels overwhelming to read a bit of, please wait until you are with a good new T to even think about reading more.
However on p. 89 top left, it sounds like people need to modify the standard EMDR protocols a lot if someone has complex trauma, dissociated "emotional parts" and so on.
https://www.myptsd.com/gallery/-pdf/1-78.pdf
I wonder if your current T really didn't get enough training to deal with complex trauma in EMDR and such? All the same, it's not your job to train him!!!
Understanding of this stuff and EMDR itself are all pretty new; I bet it's taking a while for information to filter out to all practitioners, they have to learn it from conferences and papers and such, and there are many, many conditions that they treat -- thus the preference of many here for a "trauma therapist"...
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- #57
Thanks for your posts :) I am very up and down today and probably trying to over analyse everything - I do that a lot.
Back to thinking maybe it's me not him - I have spent all of therapy from the moment I let myself be vulnerable and felt some kind of emotional attachment totally terrified of abandonment - I have needed a great deal of reassurance and I am wondering if I have suffocated him and caused what I was trying to prevent.
Maybe he doesn't react to my suicide ideation because he sees as me trying to control his behaviour - for the last few months he has been very careful to only reinforce my positive actions and ignores all the crappy stuff I do.
So maybe he is right - in that therapy is making me worse in that I can't have an emotional attachment or be vulnerable or trust without losing the plot - which is why I don't !! But that leaves me nowhere
Back to thinking maybe it's me not him - I have spent all of therapy from the moment I let myself be vulnerable and felt some kind of emotional attachment totally terrified of abandonment - I have needed a great deal of reassurance and I am wondering if I have suffocated him and caused what I was trying to prevent.
Maybe he doesn't react to my suicide ideation because he sees as me trying to control his behaviour - for the last few months he has been very careful to only reinforce my positive actions and ignores all the crappy stuff I do.
So maybe he is right - in that therapy is making me worse in that I can't have an emotional attachment or be vulnerable or trust without losing the plot - which is why I don't !! But that leaves me nowhere
scout86
VIP Member
Another thing my T says, a lot, is "yet". You can't do something "yet". The point is, you may not be able to do something NOW, but that doesn't mean you never will. That's the point of therapy, right? To learn this stuff? I'd like to think we can learn to handle attachment issues, vulnerability, and all that. But can you do that by avoiding it?
It's possible that you're not ready to deal with somthings "yet", but then a conversation about THAT might be helpful and reassuring.
You shouldn't be ABLE to "suffocate" him with your need for reassurance. He should understand your need for it and be able to help you understand your need and find appropriate ways to satisfy it. He should have his own act together well enough not to be threatened and overwhelmed by yours needs. Maybe he doesn't. He's human and we all have strengths and weaknesses. But, again, this isn't because your need it TOO MUCH, it's because he has trouble knowing what to do or being about to do it.
As the client, or the student, it's not YOUR job to make the therapist's job, the teacher's job, easy. It's your job to show up and do your best. What ever "your best" is, at any stage, it's HIS job to work with it.
ARE you trying to control his behavior with your suicidal ideation? I guess that's one possibility. If that's the case, there's a reason for it. It doesn't seem like you can work through those reasons by ignoring the situation. I don't think trying to control his behavior is the most likely explanation. Suicidal ideation is just too common with PTSD. For instance, it's something I experience and I rarely talk about it. My T seems to think it would be better if I did. My thought would be you're "ahead of me" because you ARE willing to talk about it. (I don't talk about it because it's one of the things I define as "my problem" and don't want to "bother" anyone else with. My T replies that it isn't a "bother" it's what he's getting paid for.)
It's possible that you're not ready to deal with somthings "yet", but then a conversation about THAT might be helpful and reassuring.
You shouldn't be ABLE to "suffocate" him with your need for reassurance. He should understand your need for it and be able to help you understand your need and find appropriate ways to satisfy it. He should have his own act together well enough not to be threatened and overwhelmed by yours needs. Maybe he doesn't. He's human and we all have strengths and weaknesses. But, again, this isn't because your need it TOO MUCH, it's because he has trouble knowing what to do or being about to do it.
As the client, or the student, it's not YOUR job to make the therapist's job, the teacher's job, easy. It's your job to show up and do your best. What ever "your best" is, at any stage, it's HIS job to work with it.
ARE you trying to control his behavior with your suicidal ideation? I guess that's one possibility. If that's the case, there's a reason for it. It doesn't seem like you can work through those reasons by ignoring the situation. I don't think trying to control his behavior is the most likely explanation. Suicidal ideation is just too common with PTSD. For instance, it's something I experience and I rarely talk about it. My T seems to think it would be better if I did. My thought would be you're "ahead of me" because you ARE willing to talk about it. (I don't talk about it because it's one of the things I define as "my problem" and don't want to "bother" anyone else with. My T replies that it isn't a "bother" it's what he's getting paid for.)
- Post starter
- #59
Thanks @scout I had to go and walk some of this off - keeps going round and round in my head.
The suicide ideation is not me trying to manipulate him at all - but I can see it's possible for him to think that - I brought it up with him because I was concerned I was going to act on it and as I tend to be very impulsive and drink too much and when I get to the stage that nothing , totally nothing matters - it's not a good mix .
I find it very hard to talk about in person I am embarrassed that I sink this low - so I have expressed it a little in emails but mainly when trying to explain this emotional / parts/ split / whatever it is going on but it's certainly not something I bang on about .
I think perhaps some of what has happened is that in the first half of us working together he did rush about trying to constantly reassure me, he was always available and consistently there - maybe thinking things would settle after I had moved away from my ex and I was out of 'danger' but I still seem to be in this total whirlwind of ptsd and rebuilding ( or not ) my life and completely unable to get any traction to move forward and all the time trying to cling on to him for support while he is trying to brush me aside.
You are right I should't be able to suffocate him but I think I have - or maybe I just make him feel that he's not doing his job well enough ?
I know this sounds really childish but never in my life have I had anyone who didn't betray, abuse or abandon me - I just really thought he was different, I thought even if the going got tough he might hang on in there with me - I can't even pay someone to treat me properly, for some warped reason I find that almost amusing :D I do usually still maintain a sense of humour however shit things are
The suicide ideation is not me trying to manipulate him at all - but I can see it's possible for him to think that - I brought it up with him because I was concerned I was going to act on it and as I tend to be very impulsive and drink too much and when I get to the stage that nothing , totally nothing matters - it's not a good mix .
I find it very hard to talk about in person I am embarrassed that I sink this low - so I have expressed it a little in emails but mainly when trying to explain this emotional / parts/ split / whatever it is going on but it's certainly not something I bang on about .
I think perhaps some of what has happened is that in the first half of us working together he did rush about trying to constantly reassure me, he was always available and consistently there - maybe thinking things would settle after I had moved away from my ex and I was out of 'danger' but I still seem to be in this total whirlwind of ptsd and rebuilding ( or not ) my life and completely unable to get any traction to move forward and all the time trying to cling on to him for support while he is trying to brush me aside.
You are right I should't be able to suffocate him but I think I have - or maybe I just make him feel that he's not doing his job well enough ?
I know this sounds really childish but never in my life have I had anyone who didn't betray, abuse or abandon me - I just really thought he was different, I thought even if the going got tough he might hang on in there with me - I can't even pay someone to treat me properly, for some warped reason I find that almost amusing :D I do usually still maintain a sense of humour however shit things are
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- #60
@greenleaf Hi thanks for the Emdr link I will be sure to read through it when my mind feels up to it !
The first attempt we had a Emdr was not good and I do believe a mistake on his part and I know he had only just qualified so maybe I was a bit of a guinea pig - also he didn't realise that he didn't know all my history - a lot of my traumas are linked together and it just brought up this trail of trauma that knocked me sideways and I had no coping strategies that worked other than the bad ones - so what it actually did was just make my dependency on him even worse , he was my only healthy coping strategy - we have tried a little Emdr since at a very very gentle pace and not targeting trauma - I would like to look at it again when I am in a better place - so I will read the article thanks
The first attempt we had a Emdr was not good and I do believe a mistake on his part and I know he had only just qualified so maybe I was a bit of a guinea pig - also he didn't realise that he didn't know all my history - a lot of my traumas are linked together and it just brought up this trail of trauma that knocked me sideways and I had no coping strategies that worked other than the bad ones - so what it actually did was just make my dependency on him even worse , he was my only healthy coping strategy - we have tried a little Emdr since at a very very gentle pace and not targeting trauma - I would like to look at it again when I am in a better place - so I will read the article thanks
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