New T - feedback on his lack of acknowledgment would be helpful

[LunaticOnTheFritz]

Yes

Makes sense then. I know what you're going through. Give your T a chance & just let them know what you need and hang in there!

 

[beaneeboo]

Makes sense then. I know what you're going through. Give your T a chance & just let them know what you need and hang in there!

Thanks, I appreciate that. And obviously same goes for you.

 

[Midnightmoon]

It's lovely to 'see' you @beaneeboo, I have been thinking of you.

Is your new T the same training stance as your old one? I'm wondering if you've gone from someone humanistic to someone analytical and the contrast of that, and how they then respond to traumatic material, is so starkly different?

From a very personal perspective my old T and new T are like chalk and cheese, and I miss, and often crave, that warm, relational holding presence that humanistic T's seem to practice in. Analytical T's, far more clinical, they give less of themselves as a 'human' within the relationship which I think as a complex trauma survivor can be really challenging to get used to.

On top of that you've got only got online options, so alot of the 'felt sense' of empathy and holding within the safety of a room is gone. If his language isn't what you are used to, on top of learning who he is (it's still a really new relationship) plus trying to give material to him to get him up to speed ASAP.... Trying to do all that feeling safe and secure is a huge task to try and achieve in 50 mins.

Can you pin point anything that helped support before, other than language, and offer it as a bridge to try and tell him what you need? I get that might feel awful and ick and you essentially don't want to tell someone to be nicer/ more caring/ empathetic etc.... but if you are debating whether to continue is it worth a shot to try and communicate a need anyway? I guess I raise this as I've debated it for me to do to. Pinpointing that lovely warmth and care is hard though, its so wrapped up in a person's being...

Well done for getting through the horrible early messy urgh of starting again

 

[beaneeboo]

It's lovely to 'see' you @beaneeboo, I have been thinking of you.

Ah hi @Midnightmoon ! Ditto to all that!

Is your new T the same training stance as your old one? I'm wondering if you've gone from someone humanistic to someone analytical and the contrast of that, and how they then respond to traumatic material, is so starkly different?

You've hit it on the head! Old T was a humanistic psychotherapist with no experience or training in Dissociative Disorders...new T, a Clinical Psychologist specialist in Dissociative Disorders... there is so far quite a contrast... not necessarily in a bad way, just very different approaches...

From a very personal perspective my old T and new T are like chalk and cheese

You may (or may not!) be getting back to me about this on your post, but I don't think I'm up to date with where you are with Ts in general... you have a new T, or are you sticking with no 1 for now?

, and I miss, and often crave, that warm, relational holding presence that humanistic T's seem to practice in.

makes sense and i can totally see why...

Analytical T's, far more clinical, they give less of themselves as a 'human' within the relationship which I think as a complex trauma survivor can be really challenging to get used to.

I'm quite soon into the relationship and I'm not sure where he sits... he doesn't give much away...is super chilled and non reactive which is helpful in some ways, but also has parts of me wondering if he cares about it, or maybe doesn't get what I'm saying (on an emotional level)... I've gone in with a positive mind set and am trying not to get embroiled in negative thinking as i know at this stage it's me and he hasn't done anything wrong of sorts... just a different style... and I'm trying to figure out how to navigate how reactions or non reactions!

On top of that you've got only got online options, so alot of the 'felt sense' of empathy and holding within the safety of a room is gone. If his language isn't what you are used to, on top of learning who he is (it's still a really new relationship) plus trying to give material to him to get him up to speed ASAP.... Trying to do all that feeling safe and secure is a huge task to try and achieve in 50 mins.

luckily i get 1 hour now! Old T was 50 mins and i have to say, it makes ALL the difference to have a whole hour...50 minutes is way too short for me...

I think you're right about the whole screen thing... it's still early days, but I'm finding it hard in session to connect to essentially a 2 d screen image of someone I've never met before... being in the room so far (with all my other Ts) has been so much more challenging but in the end more impactful. But, it's still really early days.

Can you pin point anything that helped support before, other than language, and offer it as a bridge to try and tell him what you need? I get that might feel awful and ick and you essentially don't want to tell someone to be nicer/ more caring/ empathetic etc.... but if you are debating whether to continue is it worth a shot to try and communicate a need anyway?

good question...ummmm... not sure.... I think it's likely stuff he can't change Because of it being on a screen.. like, when I was face to face with old T, I could not hide anything about myself... the details you pick up in session is totally different for me, being in fairly close proximity to someone, seeing details about them and vice versa... you don't see that detail on a screen... in the room, I'm more easily engaged in the moment...The close proximity also was a factor in me dissociating more as i couldn't hide, which was of course hard. But I learned strategies to deal with that. Over Zoom atm, I don't feel connected enough to feel challenged in that way. So I'm not Dissociative. Which I guess is good but maybe not for right reasons?

I guess I raise this as I've debated it for me to do to.

how is that going?

Pinpointing that lovely warmth and care is hard though, its so wrapped up in a person's being...

Very very well said

Well done for getting through the horrible early messy urgh of starting again

Thank you, and to you too...

Ps, wanted to ask whether you've heard/ seen any YouTube vids by Janina Fisher - I'm learning so much from her atm... she's really great at explaining things

 

[Midnightmoon]

You've hit it on the head

I guess I recognise that's horrible wobbly lack of stability that you think you know how therapy feels, until you go to a different modality and suddenly it's all different and feels so alien again

you have a new T, or are you sticking with no 1 for now?

I'll pop onto my post in a bit and waffle on about it (!) but old T is the one I had for 2.5 years that ended awfully... New T is option one but it's, erm, challenging to say the least.

I'm trying to figure out how to navigate how reactions or non reactions!

You are doing well, really well, navigating this stuff is hard.

i get 1 hour now!

Get the party poppers out!
I do 2 hrs (split) so I get it....

I'm finding it hard in session to connect to essentially a 2 d screen image of someone I've never met before

Very random suggestion, but is a one off meeting a possibility at all? Obviously unsure what clinic you are under but I know one of the ones my T works for does one off meetings, or yearly meetings, for people doing remote therapy for exactly this reason....

I'm not Dissociative. Which I guess is good but maybe not for right reasons?

Hummm. This is something that I'm finding too. All the closeness and proximity of being in the room was terrifying yet also deeply healing. Being seen in that way was, for many weeks, the therapy in itself. There is a natural disconnect online which feels safer...hence the lack of dissociation, but that vulnerability somehow needs to be exposed to be able to work in said therapy....

seen any YouTube vids by Janina Fisher -

I've not, I'm liking what Carolyn Spring is putting up at the minute, lots of new stuff that feels very accessible, will have a look at Janina Fisher

 

[Friday]

I think the issue I'm seeing highlighted which I need to work on is how to communicate what I really think and feel, in the moment, with him in session...

I just lose my voice. So afraid I'm wrong. I'm strong in my conviction when I write. But I'm very weak in conversation and don't feel I can hold my own

One trick is to not speak in generalities.

It often feels safer, because you’re not owning it’s YOU who wants this, but it invites disagreement on 2 fronts; 1 to broaden the scope, & 2 to find out if you actually need/want the opposite & are using the generality to hide not that you want this, but that you don’t want this.

Trauma survivors need XYZ… well, and also, ABC, & 123, & sometimes? ETC.
Women need XYZ… well, and also, ABC, & 123, & sometimes? ETC.
Men need XYZ… well, and also, ABC, & 123, & sometimes? ETC.
Americans need XYZ… well, and also, ABC, & 123, & sometimes? ETC.
LGBTQ people need XYZ… well, and also, ABC, & 123, & sometimes? ETC.

Yes, the generality hides directly asking what you want, but it also hides what you actually want. So it can feel like clarifying, but invites questioning, alternatives, etc. If you get stuck the most in being questioned / lose your conviction & dance even further away? The trick is to get really specific.

 

[beaneeboo]

I'll pop onto my post in a bit and waffle on about it (!)

Great! In your own time of course...

but old T is the one I had for 2.5 years that ended awfully... New T is option one but it's, erm, challenging to say the least.

Gotcha

You are doing well, really well, navigating this stuff is hard.

Thanks sounds like you've become quite an expert yourself (not by choice unfortunately )

Get the party poppers out!
I do 2 hrs (split) so I get it....

Glad to hear that for you! Although obviously there's a flip side I'd imagine if new T is challenging

Very random suggestion, but is a one off meeting a possibility at all? Obviously unsure what clinic you are under but I know one of the ones my T works for does one off meetings, or yearly meetings, for people doing remote therapy for exactly this reason....

Funny you should mention this...I was considering asking him as I think it could be useful for me... right now, he's becoming almost a bit of a figment of my imagination ...

Hummm. This is something that I'm finding too.

That's interesting... I doubt we're the only ones... the pandemic must have increased online therapy ALOT.. but it's still fairly young as a way to deliver therapy... I just don't think there's enough info out there about the different issues which clients and Ts may face using this mode...

All the closeness and proximity of being in the room was terrifying yet also deeply healing.

Being seen in that way was, for many weeks, the therapy in itself. There is a natural disconnect online which feels safer...hence the lack of dissociation, but that vulnerability somehow needs to be exposed to be able to work in said therapy....

THIS 1000000000%

This sums up my experience so far too.. but I have to remind myself it's early days. And there are some benefits like not having to travel...

BTW you have a really good way with words @Midnightmoon ... you're very on point and use few words to get the main points across ... it's a skill!

I've not, I'm liking what Carolyn Spring is putting up at the minute, lots of new stuff that feels very accessible, will have a look at Janina Fisher

Yes, I've been watching Carolyn Spring's weekly videos too... they are really really good, very validating, she's so good in how she shares her own experience to teach.. warm, compassionate, encouraging... between her and JF it's pretty good stuff atm

 

[beaneeboo]

One trick is to not speak in generalities.

It often feels safer, because you’re not owning it’s YOU who wants this, but it invites disagreement on 2 fronts; 1 to broaden the scope, & 2 to find out if you actually need/want the opposite & are using the generality to hide not that you want this, but that you don’t want this.

Trauma survivors need XYZ
Women need XYZ
Men need XYZ
Americans need XYZ
LGBTQ people need XYZ

Yes, the generality hides directly asking what you want, but it also hides what you actually want. So it can feel like clarifying, but invites questioning, alternatives, etc. If you get stuck the most in being questioned / lose your conviction & dance even further away? The trick is to get really specific.

Really good point thanks @Friday ...

Maybe I can start by writing it down? This probably sounds really stupid ... like really stupid... but I don't know how to SAY what I need...I can write it maybe if I have time to think about it... but I think I'd have read it out loud... I feel like such a small kid... and I probably look like 1 too.. it's also really at odds with other more confident and assured parts of myself... so that increases that feeling of being really dumb..I feel like I should just be able to say it!!

 

[Midnightmoon]

Funny you should mention this...I was considering asking him as I think it could be useful for me... right now, he's becoming almost a bit of a figment of my imagination

Definitely ask, it's really really typical in at least one of the clinics that there's even a policy on it...

 

[Sideways]

If this is bothering you, or interrupting your dynamic with your T, then definitely it’s worth asking about it. “Hey T, I’ve noticed…Why do you..?”

It’s probably fair to say I’ve had a lot of therapists over the years! And before I started working with trauma-specialists, most (not all) would validate my suffering (or simply kneejerk respond as a human!) by reflecting back how terrible my experiences were, and/or that I deserved better, when I told them about my experiences. Sometimes it was subtle, sometimes it was really dramatic (really dramatic responses were universally unhelpful, and very often problematic for me).

The only time I got those same responses when I started working with trauma specialists was when I asked for feedback on an experience: was that bad? (And I did that pretty regularly for a long time, because I wasn’t sure what was trauma and what wasn’t).

That’s true for everyone who I’ve worked with from mental health nurses, to psychologists, to pdocs, and everything in between.

They have, all, still consistently provided me with unconditional positive regard, and a safe and empathetic space. But always (always) stopping short of volunteering how they feel about my trauma, or what sort of feelings or thoughts are appropriate in response to my trauma.

That’s not accidental.

Which is not to say you’re not allowed to know how they feel about it, or whether they think it’s bad. Likely if you ask they may share that with you.

But identifying your own feelings (then processing them), and getting validation for your suffering internally, are very often foundational goals for trauma therapy, which is typically not assisted by T’s telling you “This is how I feel about it…This is what is ‘normal’”.

Yes, it is bad. Yes, they are affected when you tell them (they are likely required to have a supervisor to support them with this stuff they hear every day in order to keep their professional accreditation). But telling you “this is valid” or “this is what a regular person would feel” is very often what they are deliberately intending to avoid as a reaction when you share your experiences with them. Even in respect to present-day stressors.

 

[beaneeboo]

If this is bothering you, or interrupting your dynamic with your T, then definitely it’s worth asking about it. “Hey T, I’ve noticed…Why do you..?”

It’s probably fair to say I’ve had a lot of therapists over the years! And before I started working with trauma-specialists, most (not all) would validate my suffering (or simply kneejerk respond as a human!) by reflecting back how terrible my experiences were, and/or that I deserved better, when I told them about my experiences. Sometimes it was subtle, sometimes it was really dramatic (really dramatic responses were universally unhelpful, and very often problematic for me).

The only time I got those same responses when I started working with trauma specialists was when I asked for feedback on an experience: was that bad? (And I did that pretty regularly for a long time, because I wasn’t sure what was trauma and what wasn’t).

That’s true for everyone who I’ve worked with from mental health nurses, to psychologists, to pdocs, and everything in between.

They have, all, still consistently provided me with unconditional positive regard, and a safe and empathetic space. But always (always) stopping short of volunteering how they feel about my trauma, or what sort of feelings or thoughts are appropriate in response to my trauma.

That’s not accidental.

Which is not to say you’re not allowed to know how they feel about it, or whether they think it’s bad. Likely if you ask they may share that with you.

This is so interesting (and really helpful to hear) @Sideways .. and what you say in the context of your experience, makes sense...

But identifying your own feelings (then processing them), and getting validation for your suffering internally, are very often foundational goals for trauma therapy, which is typically not assisted by T’s telling you “This is how I feel about it…This is what is ‘normal’”.

This is so so hard. If I had to sum up one of my main issues it's this. I can't trust my suffering internally. As in validate it from many different angles. I can see why this should be a goal of therapy. But I look at it and think 'How?'. And I can see getting that external validation to strengthen my own internal validation is counter intuitive in SOME ways (not all ways). But this may explain a bit why I'm picking up on his lack of external validation. Because it threatens the fact I don't have internal validation. Though actual, I have more than this time last year.

Yes, it is bad. Yes, they are affected when you tell them (they are likely required to have a supervisor to support them with this stuff they hear every day in order to keep their professional accreditation). But telling you “this is valid” or “this is what a regular person would feel” is very often what they are deliberately intending to avoid as a reaction when you share your experiences with them. Even in respect to present-day stressors.

So helpful to have this spelled out for me.

Like, I literally did not know this.

 

[beaneeboo]

@Midnightmoon - maybe you've seen this already, but I thought this sums up quite well whare we were talking about before earlier on in the thread, re the importance of the face to face interaction with the therapist... how this impacts on a nervous system level (causing more challenge and dissociation)... and here, Carolyn puts it in the context of disorganised attachment, which certainly rang a bell for me...

May explain why online therapy doesn't quite hit in the same way...

I mean what studies are out there looking at T and client online attachments?!?!