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Preverbal Trauma - Infancy

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I've been reading about the complex ptsd emotional flashbacks & realize that yes, this hopeless, frightened tiny upset person in this state is what I've always considered to be the 'real' me. That was what was confusing for me; I couldnt have ptsd because I didnt have flashbacks. I had gone over all the trauma that I remembered & concluded that I had processed all of it & accepted it. I had convinced myself that I wasnt even all that traumatized because at a fairly young age I had learned to deal with the abuse. I accepted it, what should have been painful didnt really hurt at all. What I should have had flashbacks about was easily accepted because I had a high threshold for pain appartantly. Even as an adult, I was kidnapped, raped beaten & left for dead. I survived, recovered in a matter of days & didnt have ptsd because I wasnt in pain or terrified when it was happening. I should have been terrified of this rapist who told me he was going to kill me, but I was just resolved to accept and endure whatever happened. I know I'm all over the place with this topic, but I cant wrap my head around this idea of how can I accept what my mother did and overcome the results when Ive done this a million times and it keeps coming back. While I could no longer feel the physical pain, the emotional torture will never go away. Its all still there & its too painful for me to study this subject or to read about other people's abuse. Its all too complicated.
However, wouldnt it be true that if a child was developed enough to have an intense negative emotional response to a certain stimulus that that would be an emotional memory in the childs mind even though he didnt have the language knowledge to develop a statement to describe it. Another question is even if the mother withholds care from the newborn, if the child had a loving nanny to take the mothers place most of the time, wouldnt that compensate somewhat?
 
I've been reading about the complex ptsd emotional flashbacks & realize that yes, this hopeless, frightened tiny upset person in this state is what I've always considered to be the 'real' me.
This fragile and vulnerable state this is often associated with trauma, complex or not, is what can lead to us being traumatized easier with new knowledge by a trusted source. Its a dangerously fine line with an adult traumatized brain.

That was what was confusing for me; I couldnt have ptsd because I didnt have flashbacks.
It is a rare occurrence with PTSD to experience a flashback. Not many people ever will experience them with PTSD. They are just one symptom, not a "required" symptom to have PTSD.

I should have been terrified of this rapist who told me he was going to kill me, but I was just resolved to accept and endure whatever happened.
The ironic part is that a highly traumatized person will also build some extreme defensive resilience to be quite easy going about ongoing trauma suffering, dismissive absolutely. It is quite often found and even one symptom of PTSD.

While I could no longer feel the physical pain, the emotional torture will never go away. Its all still there & its too painful for me to study this subject or to read about other people's abuse. Its all too complicated.
You shouldn't read others abuse if your not capable of handling it, simple as that. It will only endup bad for you, as you're exposing yourself to others trauma, when already highly traumatized yourself.

However, wouldn't it be true that if a child was developed enough to have an intense negative emotional response to a certain stimulus that that would be an emotional memory in the childs mind even though he didnt have the language knowledge to develop a statement to describe it.
Depends on the age you are talking about. Anything under one year of age, you are quite honestly more than likely creating a false memory based on adult knowledge through trying to assimilate knowledge now known to an age that you have no memory, but are literally trying to connect with. The brain just doesn't function that way. Our brain at that age doesn't even know what an emotion is. It can't put words with feelings, because the brain hasn't learnt them yet, which is why under the age of 5 is normal to be completely blank slate. It would only be hugely significant events at 3+ that a person "may", very unlikely, but it has occurred and been verified, that the person had snippets, which with verification, was able to complete a memory after the memory was triggered in present tense.

There are studies run in other cultures, adulthood, where the learning and knowledge is not what English is, so to experience rape and what we determine to be abuse, because we assimilate words with a meaning, then emotion, other cultures do not have words for, and the same events are not even traumatic, because their culture cannot describe it or understand it as such, so it is not so. Difficult to think about it, but exactly the same as applying to a child. If the understanding is not there, the brain cannot be traumatized by what it actually cannot understand with meaning. If told later in life, when the brain does have meaning, that is often what causes the traumatization, not the event itself at that young an age.

Another question is even if the mother withholds care from the newborn, if the child had a loving nanny to take the mothers place most of the time, wouldnt that compensate somewhat?
That is still emotional stability, yes. A child bonds, they don't really logically process the person, it is the act. We know as an adult they feel secure, but they do not know such language or meaning, they just like it.

That sort of damage with emotionless parenting is done when the child begins to understand as their brain and understanding develop. That is where damage is done. They go to school, other kids have loving parents, they now begin to understand they are different and try to work out why. They try to get the same from their mother or father as they see other kids get... this is where traumatization begins.

If you put the same situation where the child never knew what occurred with another child, there would be no traumatization, because there would be no actual logic or understanding to apply in their situation. This is why you see children who where stolen at birth, even just learning they where stolen, they will cling to the parent they know, because they know no different. Even though the person stole them, they know no different. The event won't become traumatizing until they begin to establish exactly what has happened, then begin putting words to feelings, learning their actual parents, etc... basically, everything they knew was not traumatizing, everything they must now learn, is, as its outside their normal spectrum of how they functioned and associated as normal.
 
T If you put the same situation where the child never knew what occurred with another child, there would be no traumatization, because there would be no actual logic or understanding to apply in their situation. .

So true. Children don't understand that their situation is different until they have something to compare it to. A child with two same sex parents may not even question this until going off to school and learning that peers have one mommy and one daddy. Same with racial differences. The child doesn't have the intellectual development to understand these things unless they are faced with something to compare it to, and more likely, when someone else points it out.

A relevant example regarding the young child's memory: I used to work as a nanny and I cared for this particular little boy from when he was 14-30 months old. He loved me, we had a great time together, and he certainly knew my name. Now fast forward to his 3rd birthday a few weeks ago. I hadn't seen him in 6 months. He took a long time to warm up to me and when he finally spoke the first thing he said to me was, "what's your name?" So you see, the young brain just isn't capable of storing memories like an adult. This little boy didn't even remember a person who spent most of his young life with him. A toddler's memory is developing and even at this stage, memories may only last for days or weeks.

I wish I could upload some pictures from my neuroscience books to show you all the difference between the infant and adult brain; it's really amazing!
 
I want to thank you for addressing all of these issues. I googled in here trying to find out if side affects of a drug im taking for a heart condition is causing my depression to be unbearable, never intending to start researching my diagnosis. I got myself pretty upset with this research especially when I realized that I may not need to actually have names for personalities and blackouts to be in a dissociative state. These periods like this afternoon when I can't concentrate and sit here spaced out for hours. Needless to say I have to try harder to find another therapist. I cant do this alone. The good news is in spite of all the illness Ive had, I managed to function pretty well for years with no treatment. By all accounts I was a good mother and I've never been accused of any crime. Who knows, with treatment, I probably could've managed to overcome a lot of this. Its too bad, I didnt have it but maybe others who have this can find help & have even better lives that I've had. I hope so. Thank you again & Im just going to try to leave the therapy to the therapists for now.
 
An example of what I was trying to find out with the babies: A 3 month old was rushed to emer room where the mother tried to circumcise the baby with a boxcutter. Am I to understand that that baby won't be, as we say, "scarred for life" because of the severity of the pain?
 
A 3 month old would not be able to remember the pain to associate to the event until they learn about it and process it later in life. If you told the child later in life that their circumcision went wrong, and caused a scar, they would be none the wiser. If you told them the truth, that could now traumatize them OR may add to being a trauma if traumatized elsewhere in life.

Don't get me wrong.... if a parent did stupid shit like this constantly, then the child would eventually work out the parent was lying to them constantly, thus everything would be in doubt within their mind, which means.... let the self traumatization process begin due to doubt.
 
A 3 month old baby wouldn't even remember that there was pain as soon as it stopped being painful. Babies and toddlers react to things that are happening "in the moment". When there is pain, the baby cries. When the pain stops, the baby smiles. The baby doesn't remember the pain. Again, babies cannot remember, so it doesn't matter how many different scenarios are thrown around here, the bottom line is that the baby is not capable of creating, processing, or storing memories.
 
well Im thankful for that. In my case, I had an older brother who my mother just adored & if my daddy wasnt around my mother would tell him to come play with her and that they werent going to let me play & she'd tell me to go away & tell my brother to tell me to go away & dare me to tell my dad. so i didnt have to go to school to find out that i wasnt wanted. It was really crazy crap, that was the mild stuff. If I had a ear ache shed laugh at me and say i was lying & that God was punishing me because I was evil. crazy, cruel things that I know she didn't really believe she was just doing it because it was so much fun to hurt me & to get my brother to hurt me too. I was 5 years old & I remember. Okay, Im not gonna upset myself anymore tonight.
 
Right, you remember because you were 5. That's not a baby. You learned you weren't treated properly because you had a sibling to compare your treatment to. Some children don't have this and only realize it when they go to school. Not sure what this has to do with pre-verbal trauma anymore though.
 
Thank you. Please be patient with me, I don't know how to use this forum; I've never done it before. I will try to educate myself as quickly as possible as to what is appropriate to discuss where because right now I'm just all over the place; asking questions wherever I happen to be. Im glad to know that the professional opinion is that these babies are spared this trauma. And I assume that if I want to ask a question about what constitutes severe enough trauma to a 5 year old to cause lifelong ptsd, then this is not the place to do it. I really feel so stupid about all of this; it isnt readily apparent to me exactly how these forums work. I need to go back and try to listen to the videos again. I tried but I couldnt understand what was being said because of the accent & the video was to small to see. So, please; just try to ignore me for the time being and I'll try to learn to function.
 
I hope this information is appropriate to this discussion. Please correct me if I am wrong. I do have what would be a preverbal memory of abuse if it is real. I remember being in my crib and not being able to get up; so I assume I was pretty young. I was really hungry and I was crying for my bottle. My mother kept coming in there & telling me that I was not going to get anything until I stopped crying. She came back several times & repeated that and finally I was able with great effort to stop crying. I dont know if it matters if its true or not and it is consistent with my mother's way of doing things. Also there was cruelty about food later on that I do remember where she & my brother would buy special candy & things & of course I couldnt have any. At the age of 4 I know I wasnt allowed to drink milk anymore. Her rule was "you are not hungry unless I say you are and dont ever embarass me by saying you're hungry," and this was my first memory of this point being illustrated for me. Im not saying any of this is that bad anyway, how bad is starving a child for the fun of it compared to the terrible things that are done.
Anyway, the memory has been with me most of my life. My question is does it really matter if its real or not. It does sort of nag at me when I go down the rabbit hole to reexamine all of this crap, God forbid I would accuse her of anything she didnt actually do.
 
I remember being in my crib and not being able to get up; so I assume I was pretty young. I was really hungry and I was crying for my bottle. My mother kept coming in there & telling me that I was not going to get anything until I stopped crying. She came back several times & repeated that and finally I was able with great effort to stop crying.
What age was this, may I ask? You have a lot of detail IMO, so I am curious as to your age. Has this ever been told to you as well, by a parent, sibling or other person?

The only way you can confirm a memory at such young ages is to ask relatives who may know, parent, etc. That is the only way you could confirm such a memory.

All after the above, you're heading into areas that you should be reviewing in a trauma diary, new thread for your specific topic in the relevant forum or with your therapist, not on this thread.
 
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