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PTSD married to Passive Aggressive

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Ah, I see @brat17 , and no, no offence of course! Nor am I a saint! I was under the impression the grass cutting was very rigorous, etc. I think I gave a bit of an inaccurate impression: I have an Irish/ Hungarian temper, and was raised by parents more egalitarian than any I have ever seen, before the term was even used in the popular vernacular. And you just said it Brat, 'authentic'. I never saw manipulation. Love, fights, reconciliation, hard conversations, great passion, great support and loyalty, but no head games. For myself, a partner who wasn't 'all in', would leave me feeling 'all out'. And for myself, I would never have fit the mold of a 'domestic Goddess' or Soccer Mom, I would have gone crazy with today's version (or a 1950's version), for sure. And never fit the mold required, or the protracted pace and (oftentimes disingenuous but 'required') public persona one often needs to have to go with a flow one doesn't enjoy. I need to live, I cannot act.

But I also learned things like this: my mom was a fabulous cook, I couldn't believe she learned from scratch. She said, "Oh your dad was always cute, he'd always be encouraging even if I burn't the food (or whatever)". But she also said, "If he had been the type to whine or complain, I would have said cook it yourself!", and she meant it. I could also imagine it flying towards the wall, though she wasn't into dramatics. But I know all of the sentiment would have been there to want to, if that was the response. (A guy I was dating, I said it was cool he could cook, she said "Good he won't starve then" :laugh: ) . But usually, if both were home, whoever was home 1st made sure there was something for the other. Not obligation, but rather consideration, love and common sense. And putting the other person first. But both of them did.

, this is never going to happen. Maybe its because I am so tired or maybe Im too much of a feminist, or maybe just a Bitch. lol It only takes about 30 minutes to cut the grass and when he comes in and Ive got dinner going for him (which I don't want and don't prefer) and have a basket of laundry that I am folding or am finishing vacuuming, I just cant beat around the bush and coddle him
Sounds like you naturally would be exhausted. (Never mind- I used to say a guy wants to make love> The biggest turn on is helping with the housework- who feels like making out when you're exhausted and after hours of scrubbing and cleaning? :) )

But I did not mean coddle- I meant mutual love and respect. Caring for the well being of each other. Part of what drew you together from the start, or at least seemed more valued than now?

The deal was that he had to pitch in around here and that I wasn't carrying the load alone (especially since I would rather be in a small place than this big house). He can go lay on his bed if he wants...he washes his own bedding when he feels he needs it.There are 7 bedrooms in this house and 5 bathrooms.
Then why are you conceding to not follow your agreement together? That is your boundary, your limit. Can you revisit and negotiate from there?

Is it also possible @brat17 , that he has too little to do, or has too much? And by that I mean, when you have little or what you have is all you've got, and it's a h*ll of a fight to keep it, one usually values it a lot more. It is not so easy to replace. (And that applies to possessions, but people, too).
I also have a traumatic brain injury and this has forced to be more direct and avoid manipulation to get what I want. Telling how good he did, giving him water, and putting a blanket down feels like "manipulating" him.
And if it feels like that @brat17 , don't do it. Because I'm meaning the opposite, that it comes from a place of appreciation, value, empathy. It is exactly the opposite, because it doesn't involve 'getting something'. Unless the 'something' is making what is difficult easier for your partner. I mean, the goal is to have the dirty feet and body off the couch, right? (Which is why I say, if it were your only couch and no new one on the horizon, it might be handled with more care, by him as well. )

I don't think you are a bitch. But I hope you can find a way to meet your needs, where you don't need to feel unloved, angry or resentful in the process. Because they aren't synonymous with having joy or enjoyment. Being direct, maybe it's time to have a conversation about how you feel? Resentment is indirect, and won't bring either of you any closer, or closer to a solution, I would think? JMHO of course. But this is your H, your lover, your partner, your friend, the father of your kids. It's a leap to go all in, but either way affects what follows.
 
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… More recently, he did yard work and was all sweaty and grassy. Comes in sweaty and dirty and I say dinner is ready in 40 minutes. He gets a water and I say are you going to shower? (I need to ask that question is a problem) He says, Im gonna lay on the couch and cool off and then get a shower. Great. He is 63, not 23. I say...When you were a kid and you were out playing ball and rolling in the dirt, did your mom let you lay on her sofa before a shower and he says NO. Then he went and showered. I don't like treating a husband like a child but if I don't, he ruins everything. I have learned that I have to do this because otherwise I cant live with him. Maybe I am just a Bitch and if I am a Bitch, I don't want to change this part of myself. I have worked to make a nice house for my family for many years and our kids come back and stay for a weekend out of each month. Show some respect for what I do please. I don't like a filthy house.

Ugh. "The world's most deadly disease is "Hardening of the Attitudes". ~ Zig Ziglar

I value my partner and his assistance more than I value whether or not my house is clean. You really pile on your loathing for him. If you don't want to change, then reassess your living arrangement. Low frustration tolerance?

Examples of Rational Beliefs (RB) to Dispute (DIB’s) Irrational Beliefs (iB) of LFT – Low Frustration Tolerance:

1. (RB) I don’t like existing conditions.
(iB) Existing conditions must be changed to give me what I like, otherwise I can’t stand it and I can’t be happy at all!

2.(RB) I would like immediate gratification.
(iB) I must have immediate gratification and have to have it, or else I can’t stand it and my life is awful!

3.(RB) I find hassles and frustrations inconvenient.
(iB) I can’t stand hassles!
 
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I see there seems to be a lot of confusion about passive aggression and while its true that we have all used slight forms of it probably, I see it as a communication style at times BUT more like Zoogal stated and it is very toxic. It will leave the other person frustrated most of the time.They do act helpful and nice while intentionally sabotaging someone else. I do question the word "deliberate" in their behavior because they will deny. Apologies are superficial and often in an angry tone. "Im sorry I can't please you". They can build the deck of their dreams but if you ask them to hang a mirror they will mess up you wall so it needs holes filled and repainted. I personally think its developed early on and it is a barrier to intimacy.

More recently, he did yard work and was all sweaty and grassy. Comes in sweaty and dirty and I say dinner is ready in 40 minutes. He gets a water and I say are you going to shower? (I need to ask that question is a problem) He says, Im gonna lay on the couch and cool off and then get a shower. Great. He is 63, not 23. I say...When you were a kid and you were out playing ball and rolling in the dirt, did your mom let you lay on her sofa before a shower and he says NO. Then he went and showered. I don't like treating a husband like a child but if I don't, he ruins everything. I have learned that I have to do this because otherwise I cant live with him. Maybe I am just a Bitch and if I am a Bitch, I don't want to change this part of myself. I have worked to make a nice house for my family for many years and our kids come back and stay for a weekend out of each month. Show some respect for what I do please. I don't like a filthy house.
This is all cracking me up for so many reasons but this ones just about perfect.
I guess it's that labels make it ok to talk about behaviours that are just typical married behaviours. If you don't label it everyone tries to do arm chair psychoanalysis.

The thing is I owned a small business and I went into people's yards and homes for 10 years and I never saw anything BUT this behavior on a sliding scale. I watched the kids grow up and move away and some had kids I'd their own and I saw a few of them get sick and some die actually.

And I don't like a filthy house either so, I clean it because nobody else will. Lol!
 
Junebug I am glad you did not take offense because its my lack of describing things correctly sometimes that lead to others misunderstanding of what I am saying. I used the grass cutting as an example of silly things that happen all the time. It doesn't show expressions or any back stories. We have already had conversations about the difference in us of how we value and keep up property. He has asked me to be direct when I see it. When I say...."are you really going to lay on the couch like that? did you mother....? It is with a chuckle...and it reminds him, hell no he would not allowed our kids to do that. Its an example of communication that has already been repaired (nothing to do with PA) but just him not thinking. That is my attempt to follow our agreement and it works. After that, we move on without further discussion. We are older and don't need this size of home. He is beginning to realize this more (I think) since he is participating a bit more. Anyway, you always have such a good attitude, valuable information, and fresh outlook that I admire. I just didn't share enough.
 
I appreciate it too @brat17 , as it's so easy to miss the core issues when only partial info is available, or rather in responding the person responding gets totally off on the wrong track! (And I am sorry if I did this! :( )

I think carry on with always learning, about ourselves too, being honest and being direct, and doing so within the unique relationship you both have together.

I actually love when/ if I can be myself, though I do have anger flares sometimes, but also I don't get much out of being combative, sort of a waste of time for me and really hurts my heart. I like solutions better than discord, but not at the expense of lies or people walking on eggshells. And tbh I don't know how to not be direct, although my challenge is often even finding the words, or just having the where-what-for to think there's enough justification or anyone to care to hear them, or 'right' to express them. I suppose I don't really feel my own words are that desired or needed for others to receive. (My issue). Except to say we are a pool of combined wisdom that is trying to get remedy/ evolve.

Thanks @brat17 . :hug: I suppose these situations aren't that uncommon for any one, as Mach said, but ptsd adds a lot more layers.

Hope you have lots of shared laughs and love today. Why not? It's friday . :) ;) :hug:
 
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Thank you Junebug. I think you are awesome with words. They just seem to flow from you and you always know what to say to make others feel better. I agree, anger is normal but expressing it poorly is totally unproductive. Your words are desired and needed by others and NEVER forget that. Ya my situation is surely unique. We can never go back to the couple we were before the break up, but we do love each other, are very loyal, and we enjoy each others company and like having our family gatherings together...and now expecting a new grand baby.

It has been really good for him to be gone for the week. I don't mean that in a bad way. I have been eating deli all week....no worries. He really enjoys nice meals and going out and I have stomach issues a lot. And tonight going to an outdoor event with music with girlfriends (which I do when he is here too). But all in all, been a productive and good week.
 
I used the grass cutting as an example of silly things that happen all the time.

Okay so "silly things"? Giant leap from passive aggressive. How'd you get there? However it was, glad to see you come back around to this: "
we do love each other, are very loyal, and we enjoy each others company and like having our family gatherings together...and now expecting a new grand baby.

It has been really good for him to be gone for the week. I don't mean that in a bad way."
 
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. They just seem to flow from you and you always know what to say to make others feel better

Thank you so much @brat17 , it really helps to hear that. I appreciate it because I often regret opening my 'mouth' up.

But you know what? If you/ anyone feels better with those (my) words, the funny thing is, is it's just because you really 'should' feel better, in so far as it's the truth, aka something others can see and are just stating back. So, for example, when I say you are doing wonderfully processing, I mean it based on the facts I see/ 'hear'. You deserve all the credit. I am just the messenger. :) :hug:
 
Getting back together after trust is broken is a huge task - kudos to you for working hard at it and for it going as well as it has so far. The house sounds like a lot of work but you’ve been quite diligent and it makes sense to want someone to help pitch in when they will benefit from it.

Passive aggressive is a behavior that is sometimes learned or developed when the healthier options are not taught, or safe, or otherwise don’t work. People don’t generally become passive aggressive because assertiveness and healthy boundary setting was something they were doing and was working for them. So they manipulate to get what they want. It happens on a huge spectrum.

I have a family member that does it quite a bit. They tend to do it with others and less with me, but it still drives me nuts. I have a couple of choices with how I respond. I used to snap back and my distrust built up more and more. She kept getting a rise out of me so she kept doing it. While I was blunt, I wasn’t really being healthy in my own responses and nothing was changing. The more frustrated I got, the less direct they were. Instead, I tried new ways of communicating and conflict/disagreement resolution and new ways of making requests. I also ignored the passive aggressive stuff. Essentially, I made sure it didn’t “work” to get a rise out of me. I was happier, and over time, they have become more assertive and less passive aggressive. At the very least, the dance of them being passive aggressive stopped.
More recently, he did yard work and was all sweaty and grassy. Comes in sweaty and dirty and I say dinner is ready in 40 minutes. He gets a water and I say are you going to shower? (I need to ask that question is a problem) He says, Im gonna lay on the couch and cool off and then get a shower. Great. He is 63, not 23. I say...When you were a kid and you were out playing ball and rolling in the dirt, did your mom let you lay on her sofa before a shower and he says NO. Then he went and showered. I don't like treating a husband like a child but if I don't, he ruins everything.
This is a very blunt way to communicate, no doubt, but it’s not actually all that assertive. I don’t judge you at all for saying this, it’s not the worst thing to say, and you do have a really good point. But in this description, at no point did you assert and own your needs and wants. Maybe that did happen, but in this description, you don’t even describe making a request for him to take a shower first before laying on the sofa.

You instead treated him like a child to try to indirectly guilt and emotionally motive him into doing what you wanted without ever having to make the request. That’s venturing to the edge of manipulating someone into doing what you want instead of making an assertive request. Instead, you compared his behavior to that of a child to guilt him to change.

There are a couple of other examples where instead of stating what you need and want and making direct requests you describe indirect behaviors and things “have” to do like make him dinner... and again, maybe that is a spoken agreement you both have made but what I read happening is you not making many direct requests and then stuffing your frustration about it until it spills out into a lot of distrust, resentment, and being pissed because you have assumed he has manipulated you by sociopathically poisoning a puppy...

I wonder what would happen if you started owning your needs more and being more assertive about them. I think it might help build trust in the relationship better.
Maybe I am delusional but if a man over 60 doesn't know better than to sit his sweaty butt down on a nice clean couch then Im going to tell him. I also have a traumatic brain injury and this has forced to be more direct and avoid manipulation to get what I want. Telling how good he did, giving him water, and putting a blanket down feels like "manipulating" him.
It’s not actually manipulative at all, unless you don’t mean it at all and you are saying it with intent to get something unspoken from him. Even then, if you skipped the compliment for working hard on the house, and just put the blanket down, that’s not manipulation. A simple, “here, let me put the blanket down first” would suffice. It’s a compromise. Now if you put down a blanket that is somehow painful and horrible to sit on, to cause him pain, to try to motivate him to take the shower... ok yeah, that’s manipulative. But that’s not what people are suggesting.

It’s actually just accepting that he is the way he will be and finding a compromise that gets your want met of protecting the sofa and his want of being able to sit for a few minutes after working hard. And as far as stating he worked hard on the yard, this is also not manipulation. You want him to work harder on the house. If every time he does work hard you will compare him to behaving like someone who is trying to hurt you or is lazy and thoughtless, that isn’t going to motivate him to keep working hard. Instead, recognizing and validating someone for hard work isn’t unhealthy but is more likely to motivate them to keep doing that. “You worked hard. Here, let me put down a blanket so the couch doesn’t get dirty.” That’s simply making a validating observation and finding a solution.

It’s totally to ask him to take a shower and not get the couch dirty and gross. As far as how to make the request to take a shower, there are some ways to do it that would be more direct. It strikes me in a couple of examples given that you both may need more tools on how to communicate with each other in a direct and assertive way that is also respectful of each other’s adultness and self responsibility. Have you ever read about non-violent communication techniques? It’s not really about violence but is an easy model for how to work through differences and make requests of others more effectively and directly.

There is also using the model of setting boundaries and making requests where you use I statements. “When you... I feel... so I request...” and you can add the boundary by stating “if you choose not to do so... to take care of my own needs I will...”

Using this type of language is a great way to avoid manipulation and to be direct, assertive, clear to the other the consequences of their choices and to do it without treating them like a child but encouraging them to be a thoughtful adult, responsible for their choices more.

This is really hard stuff to do, and especially to do it consistently 24-7. You are very reasonable to want him to think more about his actions and to pitch in more. You have identified what you don’t like very well. My suggestion is keep trying out some new ways of communicating your needs and wants more assertively, and see if it works out a little better and makes it harder for the passive aggressive nonsense on his part to “work” with you.
 
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Justmehere-thats exactly how I see the PA, it didn't begin with me. Its what he had to do in his upbringing to get through life or is what he found that he thought worked anyway. He doesn't recognize any dysfunction in his upbringing and I am not attempting to convince him otherwise. You are exactly right about treating him like a child....I LOATH doing that. Yet sometimes when many things are happening I do it anyways. Particularly when we have already discussed the subject and he is in agreement, but then slips one in, it just rolls out of my mouth "you really gonna do that?". We do use humor and he says similar things to me as well. It may be a reminder of our agreement but not the best choice. You point out some really good alternatives. I use to be the queen of I statements. They don't work real well with him.

I don't cook dinner for him and resent it, I cook for him because he loves to eat and likes my cooking. I like doing things that make him happy. He also is happy to go out for meals if I don't have something prepared. We also have lots of cook outs with our kids and friends and we both love entertaining. Im clearly the menu planner but we shop together and he will pitch in and chop veggies or do prep work and do the grill and stuff. We both love doing this. We have a pool and he keeps that up. All in all, we have improved tremendously.

I guess I just think it is hard to go back even if you forgive the other person, its really hard to forget behaviors....Im gonna keep trying. I know others need that chance when they are clearly trying and showing. Its a different time now, we separated when our kids were in middle school so I primarily raised them. Had lots more energy and patience then too. Thanks for you words Justmehere!
 
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