News Reverse classism/being afraid of germany or germans

[Never_falter2]

I really do think reverse classism is a problem as bad as classism and it is one of the most deadly ideologies worldwide (just think of the Khmer Rouge for example) and in GDR where I was born it also caused a great deal of suffering. I think it must be stopped in the butt and we must be watchful that we are not reverse classist.

I think that a lot of people would never say that all working class folks are equal, yet the assume that all people from certain more privileged classes (“the rich“, royality, people who went to certain schools, whoever) are all the same... like this they are not actually people with traits like everybody else but symbols (for unfair privilege, for overcome rules, for oppression, for whatever)... and I think this I wrong talking about those people instead of talking to them and learn what it important to them and how they see their life’s and themseves... and I think it is wrong to assume because one member of a privileged group does something they all must be like this... and even more wrong because one reads in the press that one member of a privileged group did something that the press must be right and they all are like this. We all know the yellow press often make things up.

I am not a fan of monarchy or if any other kind of unfair privilege but I do think people cannot chose the circumstances they are born into, they just can chose how to deal with the life’s they have been born into.

 

[The Albatross]

I don't know about it being one of the "most deadly" ideologies... but I concur and agree that "we must be watchful that we are not reverse classist" along with quite an extensive list of things that do damage or do nothing to improve societal civility.

As a teen and young woman I actually was a "lower middle class snob" I'd dubbed myself (not knowing the reverse classism term). I was surrounded by peers and their parents who were working so hard and struggling so much that we formed the opinion and jointly shared that we were better, tougher, more adaptable, resilient than affluent young people. In hindsight, I can see that we took the hardships and tried to assign them a character development purpose the way so many people do with other perceptions and beliefs. It wasn't exactly a noble struggle but it took a lot of the physical and mental emotional pain out of it. Enough so for most of us to survive to adulthood if not thrive.

One of the most overt things I recall was verbal put downs and being a fringe person in peer groups who were in the struggles and earning their own money from a very young ages. One of the more covert things we'd do instead of "cruising the 'vard" with the advantaged people was recon mission into affluent neighborhoods and rearrange street cones so that rich people's cars would hit pot holes. A bit more passive aggressive than toilet papering their houses which they'd do to us, but we couldn't afford to waste $$$ on eggs or toilet paper.

I actually had various opportunities to change my circumstances via relationships with more advantaged men and at each turn chose to thwart the budding relationship and stay in the middle or at times lower, or a couple times even poverty. I know though why I did that. I stayed with what was familiar, what I knew, and what I trusted.

 

[Friday]

North America simply doesn’t have the same class issues that the EU does.

We have no hereditary titles. Just wealth & power via jobs (both private and political). Which -in theory- anyone can aspire to. Not that there isn’t jealousy, nor issues, with that system. Just that they are different issues. Similarly, there is no concept of impoverished nobility here. Because it doesn’t exist. Either you’re wealthy & powerful, or you’re not. People fall from grace, all the time, but it’s a complete fall. Once you lose your money, or you job/position, you also lose your standing in society. (Which is part of the reason if you ask an American what they do, they’ll respond with their job titles, not their passions/hobbies as many Europeans would. We define ourselves -and our position in society- largely by our work & bank accounts. A board member of a multinational corporation, an ambassador/upper level politician, the wealthy... these are our upper class. But only so long as they work those jobs &/or have the money to maintain the lifestyle.)

We also don’t have decades of communism fiercely decrying the evils of class, on the one hand (up to and including imprisoning & executing people who attempt to set themselves above their peers); whilst at the same time creating an entirely new class system based on fear via the Stasi & KGB ...& in many ways the looming threat of Moscow (or to a lesser extent Belgrade). We have no history of that kind of ultimate state power over people’s day to day lives.

Unified Germany has both sets of class issues.

Hereditary & Revolutionary class issues simply don’t make sense to most Americans.

Race issues make sense, wealth vs poverty issues makes sense, but class doesn’t.

 

[somerandomguy]

I'm totally fine with class prejudice when it's anti-upper class, but that doesn't happen in this country. Perhaps you've heard of our rich, rich President.

Here in the United States, rich people control literally everything and pretty much always attempt to make life hell for people who aren't also rich. There's nothing anyone can do about it, especially since poor people generally don't vote or aren't allowed to vote and middle class strivers politically side with rich people most of the time.

So yeah, I'm totally good with reverse classism in the USA. It just doesn't happen.

EDIT: I'm talking about rich people as a political class, not personally. I've known several very rich people in my life who were lovely and used their good fortune to help others.

 

[ILoveLife]

There are psychological traits we all share that become evident in some circumstances, like being rich or being poor, upper or middle or lower class, in different degrees.

I for one find the whole reserve classical notion apologetic of bad traits, like we aren't supposed to criticize them.

Obviously, considering group mentality, we should be careful in evaluating an entire class for the traits of some members. But it can become apologetic of those bad traits if it becomes too PC to even question them.

 

[Swift]

most deadly ideologies worldwide

Sorry, I'm actually going to dispute your numbers here.
400,000 Cambodians were killed by US bombs in the years leading up to Pol Pot. The statistics usually quoted on this count all deaths from famine as the work of Pol Pot - rather than the US bombing food sources. It's an Amnesty statistic - Amnesty International has a mission to register deaths with no cause attributed. Just to do a literal body count. In the field a body count with no cause listed is an Amnesty statistic rather than a reliable measure of what killed someone.
The worst proportional population death toll since the Holocaust occured in West Papua - one in three West Papuans were murdered for opposing the Indonesian regime. One in three.
That was after the Indonesian genocide of 1965 where upwards of a million were killed.

For some perspective.... in 1990 sanctions against Iraq killed 1 500 000 million children. And Madeline Allbright said it was "worth it."
Sheer numerical data just doesn't support your statement.

And... 'reverse' prejudice never has the same structural impacts as prejudice.
On an emotional level, of course it feels similar. Being judged and mistreated for a characteristic you can't help sucks.

For example, if an Aboriginal person hates me because of my ethnicity - that sucks. There isn't a 36-year gap in life expectancy for my family though, and my children are 36% less likely to die from preventable disease before 5 years old.

Shitty treatment is shitty treatment, judging people is judging people and it all sucks. But - 'reverse' classism simply does not have the same structural impacts, the same challenges and barriers, the same body count as classism.

 

[Teasel]

I am an inverted snob. To be fair in a very small way. It's not nor ever will cause me to harm another human being. Most people I know are inverted snobs to some (usually pretty tiny extent). I live in the UK. Pretty sure it's more of a thing here. It's not worse than a hell of a lot of other things I can think of.

I think I can live with myself for this flaw :D

 

[Justmehere]

In the US we elevetate celebrity - almost as a class of their own. There is no reason the Kardashians should be famous billionaires and yet they are famous for being famous, and Forbes just did an article on Kylie Jenner being the youngest “self made” billionaire. Why? Because she’s famous. That’s her entire skill set.

People love to hate them. They take it all the way to the bank.

There are Beverly Hills like cities and neighborhoods in every state where drug use, child abuse, and debt (and even hunger) exist. I worked in a social work type of position in such a community and was chronically astonished how miserable people were... And when problems happen, they are severely under reported.

It’s super easy to think the grass is greener over there. Sometimes, it’s fake grass, fake smilies, and what is underneath is dead and trampled.

I am working on a project right now where I have to keep my reverse classism in check. I keep getting angry at what I stupidly call “pearl clutchers.” People who are well off and aghast over the littlest things. It’s a group that is trying to be better at welcoming diversity and the push back and discomfort they express over some things... holy crap... I keep wanting to say, “really? How is it that you function in the world if this is difficult for you?” I keep feeling like damn, I’m unshakable compared to them. Which uh, I’m easily shaken.

But I’m setting up a i-am-better-than-them situation in my head and that’s just what this project is trying to avoid. It’s taking up too much brain space.

My therapist and I had a really challenging conversation about being compassionate towards a CEO that did something stupid and was trying to make it right, and floundering a bit at making the changes. I was almost starting to get arrogant about it - not what my therapist said - but I was starting to go there, and it was not helping our team work with this CEO very well. So. I tried to check my better-than-you attitude at the door and tried to find an ounce of compassion. It didn’t change the logistics of the situation much, but it sure helped me feel less pissed - which helped me be a better problem solver and team player.

I also think projection can play a role in classism and reverse classism. Many people are actually quite insecure about their worth. So they go around trying to puff themselves up by declaring I’m better-than-them. Think about the secretly gay pastors on a mission to declare the wrongs of homosexuality. Or the weathly folks terrified they will lose their jobs and money but go around declaring how terrible and evil the homeless are in society.

When people feel secure in their own self worth, they tend to not compare their own self worth to others as much.

 

[grit]

I would say in North America race trumps class. Even a rich black person is still black guy moving to the wrong neighborhood! just adding same cent like everybody else.

 

[Fiadh]

@Never_falter all the points you make about sitting people down and getting to know the person works both ways. The stigma people place on different classes in UK are funny in there own ways. It baffled me when I found out when I was young that this system existed and where I was in this created system.

I would love those ideas of more acceptance of each other to happen to people in the lower classes, because it doesn’t and I’m sorry but my family graft our way through life. But acceptance doesn’t always happen in my experience. I’m bloody proud to be working class just as my parents were and those before them. You are what you are, you’re born into the family you are born into- ignore any of the other funny idiots who have the time to make comment on social status- do they really not have enough to worry about.

nobody I know would ever have enough brain time to be reverse classist.

 

[Never_falter2]

Actually I do not know how to quote. However.
@Sietz. Yes, of course it is okay to criticize bad traits, but I think it is not okay to do so in a reverse classist way.
To give an example:
“Joe is a CEO and he beats his wife“. That‘s not classist, that’s just a fact.
“There is a study that shows that CEOs have a above average quote of domestic violence“. That is also just a fact (if such a study exists)
“Somebody told me Joe the CEO beats his wife. I mean I never talked to him or her... but I am pretty sure it is true, aren‘t those people like this?“ This is classist to my mind.
“Joe the CEO beats his wife. Therefore Jim the CEO most likely beats his wife too. This is how they are“. That’s classist.

@Swift. I did not say that it was “the single most deadly ideology“ but “one of the most deadly“. I talked of the Khmer Rouge just as one example, there was Stalin, there was Mao. A quick google search revealed that Communism killed circa 100 million people. Are those numbers correct? I do not know, I am not a historican but I think that there is a consensus that it has lead to a great loss of human life and I do not think there is anybody who disputes that. Is it the only deadly ideology? Of course not. Racism, religious fundamentalism and other ideologies are pretty deadly too. I started this thread because there was a discussion about reverse classism on another thread which I did not want to derail. I have to stress that I never meant to say that reverse classism was bad while religious fundamentalism (for example) was quite okay. Both are bad ideologies but I chose to discuss reverse classism in this thread.
Yes, of course reverse classism had real consequences for millions and millions of real people. They are not just a statistic, they were real people who and they were snuffed out because somebody decided because of their class they had no right to exist.

@berlinda: Yeah, I guess it is pretty easy to live with being reverse classist, just as it is pretty easy to live with being sexist... if one is a man... but what it is like for for the women he encounters?

@somerandomguy: I really cannot judge if Trump is a good politician. I do not know so much about politicians from others countries... but there have been bad politicians from humble backgrounds too: Hitler, son of a tollkeeper for example, talked with a very working classy accent... which lead to the fact that elites at this time did not take him serious and underestimated how dangerous he was. He was nicknamed the little man by them.

@Iriseen: Yes, of course it works both ways. I was talking about reverse classism because that happens to be the topic of this thread. I do not think that classism is any better then reverse classism.

BTW @Iriseen, you stressed the importance of sitting the person down and talking to them. What Oulu you say when I asked you what it was like to be working class? I am just curious.

 

[Fiadh]

BTW @Iriseen, you stressed the importance of sitting the person down and talkin...

I would say ask away, It doesn’t bother me. my class has never been an embarrassment for me. I used to get bullied for getting free school meals- one hot meal a day- but when I got home and saw my parents having worked back to back shifts and how grateful they were for me having been fed. I would take the punches at school knowing that my family are OK. Life is complicated in different ways for everyone no matter what class you are.