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Medical Should medical staff stop when you tell them to?

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*This is slightly off topic of the original thread but I feel quite strongly about something, and here it is:

"Female circumcision" is most certainly NOT equivalent to circumcision. It's a term that the media took up to describe something that happens in many Third World countries. It's not performed in the United States. (Except perhaps in small ethnic communities, in a non-medical setting. I can't imagine that either Canada or Australia does this, either, and I think that covers 99%+ of the board members.
So it's irrelevant here.
It's "nicer" to say it the first way. Less offensive to our Western sensibilities. Try googling it and you will be sent to a search with the label Female genital mutilation.
(FGM), also known as female genital cutting and female circumcision, is the ritual cutting or removal of some or all of the external female genitalia.

It's a term describing a disgusting thing. Imagine cutting the whole thing off. That would be akin to "female circumcision". That term is misleading. I'm actually glad to see that Google took my search this way - now I know. Now you know.
 
@Allie D. I'm afraid you need more education when it comes to male genital mutilation, AKA circumcision. It's not a competition, so let's not compare the horror of FGM to the completely different kind of horror that is MGM. Many of us male Westerners have direct experience with this kind of mutilation and loss of bodily integrity. Please do not insult our personal pain.

If you want to bring world FGM into this debate, then we should also bring up the high world rates of penile amputation resulting from nonsurgical MGM. There's a reason why Africa - widely known for FGM, but also where most nonsurgical MGM takes place - is the new world home to penile transplant surgeries.
For Male Circumcisions Gone Wrong, a Pioneering Transplant Surgery
 
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Sorry, but a 5 year old child screaming that they don't want a local anaesthetic because it comes in a needle...
Speaking as someone who WAS that 5 year old, I'd just like to throw in the idea that, while I get the "medical necessity" part of this, pinning that kid to the table and forcefully restraining them for the procedure might expedite things, but it won't do much for their long term relationship with the medical profession. If it happens once, maybe they'll get over it. If it happens all the time? Personally what I learned is that "these people" are not on my side and I want to stay way far away from them.
 
@scout86 I agree it can be horrible for any kid having to undergo repeated distressing procedures.
I think finding a way to distract or otherwise de-stress a child is far better for all involved, than just ignoring a problem to save some tears.

At the end of the day, life isn't fair. Scary and painful things happen to people all the time, all over the world for all manner of reasons. At least with medicine you can be hopeful of an improvement when it's over.
 
At the end of the day, life isn't fair. Scary and painful things happen to people all the time, all over the world for all manner of reasons
I had to take a moment to think about this. Because, your totally right. On the other hand, if we could "just get over" this stuff, none of us would be here.

I'm not saying I got PTSD from my dealings with the medical profession. But, I can see how you could.

Looking back, I think what was going on with me was that there's something about being held down and hurt, with no regard for how I felt, that was pretty triggering. A lot of pedophiles rationalize that their behavior is, somehow, in the child's best interest. From the outside, it's clearly different. But so much when you're in the middle of it. Besides that, I have a huge phobia about shots. (Kind of interesting that it's been suggested that it has to do with a fear of "penetration". I don't know that that's true. Seems kind of lame, to me.)

Anyway, I'm an adult, so no one can force me to see a doctor. My criteria is this these days. I'll go to the doctor 1) if I'm unconscious and don't get a vote 2) I'm losing buckets of blood and can't get it stopped 3) something is clearly broken/out of place/ messed up enough that I can't work. I had my last tetanus shot in an ER because they wouldn't let me leave without it. Haven't had a physical since I graduated high school, because no one can make me. I can't think of one "doctor experience" where it seemed like the doc was on my side. And I know, and always did know, I'm a PITA as a patient. I just haven't found a way to do anything about it. At least not yet.
 
Depending on regions and severity we have Children hospitals in Canada. They specialize in dealing with child health care and the sensitivities required for that. I can assure you, you weren’t the only fear stricken child. The process is very scary for little ones and my heart breaks for them. Which is why I requested a transfer out of the Children’s hospital to a standard hospital facility. Children dealing with what seemed like huge adult problems made for horrible sleepless nights.
 
Let me bring this back to the original question of this post. I am speaking from one who has learned a ton of medical stuff from being the patient. I am also working toward the big 70. So, I have a long history of medical procedures and surgeries...22 actual surgeries and many, many invasive procedures and tests...hence the PTSD from invasive medical procedures (mixed in with childhood abuse).

Starting from a young child, obviously I had no say in what was done to me. At worst, I was forcibly held down while something was done, for my good, that caused me pain and fear. All the way into my 40's, tests were done, of which I agreed to because they were needed for a correct diagnosis, but some of them were done at the Dr.'s convenience. I was told, more than once, that to numb the area or to "put me to sleep" for whatever they were going to do would take longer than simply doing it. They held no regard to my growing fear of the pain to me they were going to cause. So it boiled down to giving consent for their procedures, at their convenience, or not having it done at all, which meant, if the latter choice was made, I would not get the medical care I needed for the problem. I felt "forced" into having to endure pain that was not necessary in many accounts. As a result, there have been times that I have stopped a medical procedure due to abject fear and gotten off a surgical table prior to it and walked out on 'em, crying all the way to the dressing room.

As the years have gone by, especially in the last 4 years, I have seen a change in the attitude of the medical staff doing testing and procedures, especially when they know of my PTSD. Now I have doctors who take the time to sedate me, even though it makes the procedure time longer. I have not had to endure things 'cold turkey' as in the "olden days". I have sensed no adverse judgment from the hospital staff, either. They seem to have a more compassionate understanding of the stress involved in what they are about to do. I suspect it is the ongoing education into the emotional needs of their patients and the rising knowledge and recognition for PTSD amongst the population, outside of just military. And this change in staff attitude, I have seen in many clinics, where I have received care, throughout my area. And I have seen it in 4 different hospitals, here, that occasionally care for me. It is no longer the cold, insensitive care I experienced in years gone by.

As a caveat, I will say that, you have to be your own voice in your care. If you need to stop a procedure or ask for a means in which to help you endure it, you have to speak up. So, in my experience you can stop a procedure, but doing so, you also have to be willing to accept the consequences for doing that, which may means you will not have as clear of a diagnosis as desired. Or it may mean you will have a deep scar from the wound you did not want stitched up or a crooked arm because you refused a cast for it. I say all this, in light of the situation being non-life threatening. If things are in crisis, then I would expect to have no say in what is being done to me. They are saving my life.
 
Female genital mutilation is a horrible thing. I'm not saying it isn't. But Male genital mutilation can also be horrible. And i'm pointing out that it seems that informed consent is used selectively. That's what the discussion was about. It doesn't seem that we as a society apply the informed consent rule with consistency. This can cause confusion for both medical professionals as for patients.
I also see that in some cases people seem to downplay the experience of the trauma that is caused by forced medical treatment. There's another rule in the medical field that says, do no harm. As our society changes and technology becomes more advanced. And our medical professionals experience more pressure because of the increasing workload. Some of these moral standpoints are becoming harder to interpreted. For these and other reasons i think a debate is needed.
 
@ben1982

I’m not sure where you are. ‘Do no harm’ is not a policy, it’s an ethic that is followed in regards to overall care - invasive surgery is a form of harm but necessary to correct underlying issues. Stitches, needles, clamps are harmful. Because they hurt.

The policy here in Canada, is everyone has a right to fair medical treatment while privacy is respected. I’ve generalized it, it’s much more extensive than that as it is pretty comprehensive.

Myself and other posters who work in the industry have demonstrated why the consent issue can get tricky. We are not downplaying the traumas that people face with treatment that has been forced due to certain criteria being met. Otherwise people truly are free to make bad medical decisions in regards to their health.

You can’t apply selective consent policies to elective medical because emergencies can happen at the podiatrist clinic or dentist. If you apply a ‘must consent’ to certain facilities or practices. Example: a patient has a heart attack and unconscious in a dentist chair, a ‘must consent’ for that facility would prevent a dentist from performing CPR. It would be an even bigger nightmare for the Paramedics that arrive who now have to double check the policy losing critical life saving time.

A lot of lives would be lost with that kind of process. I’m in favour of the policies as they stand - they’re not perfect but lives can be saved during critical moments.

Remember there is a huge difference between Elective and Emergency / Critical Care. The policies are built around the possibilities that emergencies may arise.
 
Neverthesame
You dont care you were circumcised and you had no negative effects.There are other people who do care and did have negative effects. Are their complains not important? Can you undue what was done to them? There's a piece of their body cut off without their consent. Do we allow that with other body parts? There is no consistency here. We apply informed consent selectively. And the case of your cousin is the exception. Most men are doing just fine uncircumcised. You can easily see that by looking at Europe vs the USA. But that's not the point. The informed consent rule is ignored in this case. While in others we view informed consent as the moral highground. So what is it? Is informed consent the standard that we should use or not?
 
@ben1982
I’m not sure where you are. ‘Do no harm’ is not a policy, it’...

(it’s an ethic)
What are our moral and ethical rules in today's society when it comes to informed consent?
To go back to the original question. She said stop. The medical professional didn't. Most people here agree that was rong. She feels violated by thiis experience. Should the medical professional lose her licence? Should the medical professional suffer other consequences? What if she had kicked the medical professional? Would that be assault or self defence? (this would have been my natural reaction).
If i say stop and a medical professional doesn't. I would probably say it again in a very ferm voice. If the medical professional still doesn't stop. I would react with extreme violence. Would i have to go to jail for that? Or the medical professional? I know everybody would back up the medical professional. Is that justice?
 
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