Structural Dissociation?

[Hope4Now]

I think it depends on whether the EP feels that the ANP is trying
To shut it down.

 

[shimmerz]

Smart. :woot: ;)

 

[sun seeker]

I hope this fits here. I think it does.

I'm at a stage involving lots of repeated listening to songs that express the feelings of some of my EPs. For a few days it was Alyssa's Lies. Over and over and over. For me it's about the shame of having to keep secrets, and some other things I still can't put my finger on. Then it was Concrete Angel, and it took me some time to understand why I was relating so strongly to the little boy watching how she is being hurt and not knowing what to do. Got that one in time. It's about a family I was living with for a while after I left home who were beating their daughter, the agony of not knowing how to help, and being kicked out of the house when I finally did intervene. I discovered the shame I still feel around that.

Tonight I've found a different sort of song I thought I'd share because it isn't well known, Fred Small singing I Will Stand Fast. It's sung from the point of view of a supporter of a survivor of child abuse. The imagery is perfect for warding off the darkness of abuse (as I see it - I'm a very visual person). The love there is melting the stone in my traumatized five year old EP. Just thought I'd share.

 

[Hope4Now]

'm at a stage involving lots of repeated listening to songs that express the feelings of some of my EPs.

I never thought of my obsessive listening to certain songs and the hours I spend making playlists as this, but you've just reframed this. Yes, yes, yes. This is part of the healing power of music. I'm so glad you are finding the songs are helping your EPs!!!! I'm going to listen to the ones you mention!

It's about a family I was living with for a while after I left home who were beating their daughter, the agony of not knowing how to help, and being kicked out of the house when I finally did intervene. I discovered the shame I still feel around that.

This is an awful thing for you. I am so sorry. I'm curious about the shame you discovered around that situation. Does part of you feel that you shouldn't have intervened?

I cannot believe that we actually share a vaguely similar experience. I managed to block out mine until your post just brought it all back (which I'm glad of, so no worries). When I was a senior in college living in an apartment, a number of us feared that the family upstairs was neglecting their baby. Something odd was up with the baby and there was certainly domestic abuse going on. I actually volunteered at a shelter for abused women, and I did try to talk to the mother several times. We offered to babysit and invited her for meals. Not surprisingly, nothing happened. We called the police on them several times (we were afraid of him). They were very angry and knew it was us. After several months, they moved away. I cringe in shame that we didn't know enough or have the courage enough to do more.

Fred Small

I LOVE Fred Small!!! Met him at something recently. Good guy. Unitarian Universalist minister. But I'd never heard this song. Thank you. Truly. It is going onto my new playlist.

 

[sun seeker]

Oh Hope, I so relate to what you shared about the family neglecting their baby. What an awful predicament. Did the police do anything about it? The thing is, so often even if you do call the police they don't do anything. It has to be really extreme, provable, and often even then nothing happens. Please forgive yourself. You did what you knew how to do.

Maybe we should have another thread about how to intervene if we suspect child abuse? It's a good thing to think about ahead of time.

The shame is about being trapped between a rock and a hard place, I think. Say nothing and be there to tend the bruises and try to talk the victim into letting you call the police? Did that once and it was the most helpless feeling. (She was 18 at the time. With a child I would have just called anyway.) Say something and get kicked out? Did that next. The other part of it though is after getting kicked out I had to find somewhere else to live, and moving in with another friend in the neighbourhood of course caused questions to be raised, and then people talked, and when I went over there again to get my things, my friend whom I had been trying to protect confronted me because now the neighbours knew and why couldn't I have kept my mouth shut. I couldn't win for trying.

I haven't had to face a situation like what you describe where there is obvious abuse or neglect. (Well, other than the one I just described I mean.) I've seen a few cases where I'm on the edge: do I say something (and have the parents get more hostile and possibly make it worse for the kids)? I've done that a few times actually, and it has never gone well. There's a moment of agonizing heart-in-the-throat indecision, then steeling myself because I can't not say anything, but even if the parent isn't going to take it well what I want the kid to remember is that someone cared enough to try. In other situations what I've opted for is keeping an eagle eye on kids who seem to be roaming around unsupervised - there was a lot of that in an apartment block my daughter and I lived in. Or in other circumstances, just be nice to them so they know someone cares. I have some neighbours whose back yard borders on mine, so I see a lot of them in the summer when out gardening. (I live on four lots and the garden is quite a way back from the house so we don't see much of each other in winter.) This lady yells at her kids like it's going out of style. You can't call the police on someone for yelling. It's the kind of yelling though, she doesn't seem to have any concept that they are the kids and she is the mother. What I can do is smile at the kids, chat over the fence, show an interest. Now I'm writing this, I think I should make an effort to do more of that this summer. I hope it makes some small difference. :(

No wonder I have so many dreams about adoption.

Edited to add: I missed the last line of your post. You met Fred Small? Wow! Lucky you! :) The other one of his that I like is Everything Possible.

 

[sun seeker]

This last post got me thinking. I have a problem I'm wondering if any of you can relate to. I grew up in a family where reality behind closed doors was very different from the outer image, and though I've long been aware of that I have trouble reconciling the two. Matters aren't helped by how many of my parents' friends were exactly the same way - something I wasn't aware of at the time but now am. Incest was rampant in the circles I grew up in. But they were teachers, activists, Pillars of the Community, so no one would ask. I remember one time as a teenager when my parents were having a fight, hurling insults at each other, and I was probably frozen and hiding somewhere because that's what I did, and the house was probably grimy and cold because it usually was. Some cars pulled up. Oops - my parents had forgotten it was their night to have a group from their church over for tea. Out came the gracious smiles. Made me sick. To this day, Pillars of the Community have to prove themselves in my eyes. If it looks too good, I expect it to be a veneer. I've gotten cynical.

I don't want to be cynical. Can't there be some people who actually are what they appear to be? Some people who seem good on the outside because that's what's inside and they have enough light in them to shine through? I tried to raise my daughter this way. Not sure how well it worked, but it was my intent. I didn't have radio or TV (except for videos) when she was little because I didn't want her to be affected by violence on the news, for instance, but instead to gradually develop a sense of altruism that comes from inner strength and actually having something to give.

The above post reminded me of this because of my neighbour and how she treats her kids. I know her out in the world as well, and see the other side of her, the graciousness and charm, how it turns on and off like flipping a light switch. I wonder if her kids have noticed this yet.

So here's my problem as it relates to integration. The layers of complexity in my own mind are astounding. When I am doing something good that people notice, whether it has to do with competence or altruism or whatever, I can't just believe myself. I immediately assume that if there is good on the outside, it has to be because I am hiding something ugly. The two are linked in my mind through lots and lots of reinforcement. I can't just believe "yes, I did something good, that's because I had it in me to do it." My inner critic berates me endlessly, questioning my intent over and over, and my failures and darker places grow and grow in my mind and I can't believe there is good in me too. It gets in the way of being who I want to be.

Is this making any sense? I feel like I must be hiding something even by posting this. God I'm complicated.

 

[sun seeker]

Seems I'm on a roll here. Thinking some more about my parents' friends, Pillars of the Community as I like to call them. I don't really think either of my parents had any close friends. When we lived on the other side of the country, my dad had his colleagues, there was a tiny group from their church (very minority religion) that would get together every second week, and thinking back I'm not sure if my mom had what you could call friends, at all. After moving, there was more of a sense of community where we moved to, but still we were very isolated. We'd have people over once in a while (following a frenzy of cleaning and stuffing all the crud into another room) and there was a sense of putting on a show. They'd connect with people through their church and various activist groups. But ongoing connections like what I would call friendship... certainly close friendship... I don't think they had that. The Pillars of the Community were trying to impress the other Pillars of the Community. Then they'd come home and it would all fall to pieces. Not sure where I'm going with this. It's just interesting to think about.

 

[Hope4Now]

@shimmerz and @sun seeker and @Kaia and anyone else who was interested in the question of time...
Just found this interesting piece on time distortion by the same person who writes the wiki on structural dissociation. It's oldish but quite interesting. http://www.trauma-pages.com/a/vdhart-97.php

 

[sun seeker]

I have an EP I am trying to take care of, and don't know how. I feel like I've been handed a traumatized child and told I'm supposed to know what to do, and I don't.

How do you validate an EP that wants to self destruct, without letting it? I'm not letting it, and I'm not suicidal, lest anyone worry. But how do you validate, and listen, and release the trauma, without letting it do what it keeps telling you it wants to do?

I have, I think, two EPs that want to die. They are active in different circumstances. The one that was very active last night is about a year old. I am learning to identify body sensations that happen when different EPs are coming to the forefront, and this one seems to centre around my solar plexus. It keeps telling me over and over that it wants to die, in perfectly clear English that no toddler could manage. I was able with a lot of effort to bring in my ANP to hold that part of my body and send it light in comforting colours, and keep telling it "I know you want to die, but I love you, please live."

It helped enough that the EP felt safe to show me what it was feeling in more detail. There is a sense I don't have a name for, sort of seeing and feeling at the same time, if that makes sense. So I see myself at a year old, in the livingroom of the house we lived in then, and my mother is holding me while my father stands close by, and I am repeatedly, violently jerking my head back. Again, and again, and again. It looks like a convulsion.

But wait... I never had convulsions. My sister had convulsions. That's what my mother has always said. What am I seeing/sensing?

My mother has given me such a tangled web that I keep in my mind. I can't possibly make my way through it, find the clear places. I have to just throw the whole web away... where? I don't know how many things she lied to me about. I've only recently realized there are a couple of distinct memories I have of things she did that all along, she has told me my nursery school teacher did. The incidents themselves aren't that important, but unless there is some uncanny coincidence going on, for some reason she transferred them to the teacher. I know I'm not remembering wrong because I remember the incidents in so much detail. Why would she do that? I could drive myself crazy trying to work it out, or just sweep the web out of my mind.

Anyway, trying to get in touch with my EP, I followed that movement, the head jerking. My stiff neck didn't like it and I ended up very nauseous. It didn't clarify anything and the urge is still there. My EP wants to bang her head on the floor. Very hard. I'm not going there. This isn't seeming like a convulsion anymore. This is so confusing. But I'm stuck and she's still enraged... or something like that, it's not an emotion I'm used to. How do I work with that movement without injuring myself?

 

[shimmerz]

Pillow on floor, go through motions slowly? So as not to harm? I don't think the EP cares about how quickly you do it, or whether it hurts, she just needs someone to feel how it felt to her (the emotions, not the banging).

I don't know how many things she lied to me about.

I suggest that you assume everything. Let your body tell the story.

I found with EP's that if I, as the ANP, asked if I could provide them with something that I (ANP) found soothing, that many times my EP would start to trust and the feelings lessen a bit. May I ask, what type of solar plexus issues are you having? Shooting pain? Do you double over? What does the pain stop you from doing? Self care? Walking? Moving?

 

[Hope4Now]

Oh @sun seeker I so understand...Am sending you warm and CLEAR energy to support you!

My response will sound intellectual, but it is heartfelt too. I am struggling with much the same kind of thing with the dying energy. Had emergency appointment with my t yesterday...some of what I say below reflects that.

I've been contemplating a lot about what I learned on this thread about ANPs and EPs and how it connects and doesn't connect with the theory of personality proposed by Dick Schwartz in Internal Family Systems. I don't quite have an answer, so what I say below might not be coherent at all...I'm rather scrambled at the moment.

have, I think, two EPs that want to die.

Do they want to die, or do they feel like that is the only way to escape the pain of what they are feeling/holding? My t would say that the "part" that wants to die is separate from the child. The part that wants to die is a "firefighter" and comes in when nothing else seems to be working to protect the system from the pain the child is holding. That we as SELF (or ANP for some), need to engage with the firefighter part that wants to die (and may be protecting you from the pain of more than one child part). We need to ask, "What are you afraid of?" and listen to the answer. We need to reassure it that we are safe now, and adult, and that we can take care of the child parts.

It helped enough that the EP felt safe to show me what it was feeling in more detail.

That's great. Just ask those EPs whether they really want to die, or whether they just want relief from their pain and protection?

My mother has given me such a tangled web that I keep in my mind. I can't possibly make my way through it, find the clear places. I have to just throw the whole web away... where?

Sigh. I understand. Your SELF knows what is true. Your parts are gaining trust of your SELF. It is a long process.

:hug: to you.

 

[sun seeker]

Thank you so much @shimmerz and @Hope4Now. I'm doing better, just nauseous and mildly dissociated.

I don't think the EP cares about how quickly you do it, or whether it hurts, she just needs someone to feel how it felt to her

Yes, that's a good point. I think I've put too much strain on my neck already so I have to do this by imagining it really vividly. You know how athletes and musicians can train without actually moving the muscles involved? I'm guessing that would work here too. I'll let you know how it goes.

May I ask, what type of solar plexus issues are you having?

Nausea, and a feeling of needing protection. Sometimes I walk around pressing in on my solar plexus as if something were going to fall out, or lie in bed with pillows wedged tight against it for pressure. I asked what it needed and got a pretty clear answer about being protected from my mother. I'm getting closer to being able to promise that.

Do they want to die, or do they feel like that is the only way to escape the pain of what they are feeling/holding?

It's a good differentiation to be aware of, yes. As far as I can tell, I have two EPs that want to die, maybe more. They come up in different situations. One of them feels death is the only escape from insufferable emotional pain. I think in fact I have two that feel that way. Another is a judge that wants me to die if I do something that it considers unforgivable, especially having to do with breaking loyalty to my family, even just in my mind. I'm not afraid I'll act on it (or on the other(s)), but it can be pretty rough going. Interesting now I think about it, I don't have a clear sense of this one as any particular age or related to any part of my life.

The part that wants to die is a "firefighter" and comes in when nothing else seems to be working to protect the system from the pain the child is holding.

Yes, that fits.

We need to reassure it that we are safe now, and adult, and that we can take care of the child parts.

This is where this way of working with dissociated parts works so much better for me than the inner child work I have tried to do. There, you are supposed to always be the adult and care for your child parts that are seen as separate from you. I could never manage it very well. It was too hard to stop BEING the child parts to take care of them. I'm noticing lately how much of the time I am coconscious, and being both parts at the same time is something I can do. I don't think I've always done that, but I'm not sure. I've been aware of being able to do this for several years.

It does help lessen the intensity sometimes, to remember that it is only one part of me feeling such intense pain and that there is another part ready to step in and take care of it. It helps me anyway (at least sometimes), how is it for you?