Suffering vs Death

[Mee]

I don't understand at all why people believe it is preferable to live with immeasurable suffering than to die.

Just not getting it.

I'd love to hear thoughts...

Does this have to be something you ‘get’ for others?

Eg- I am pro euthanasia. ( not you know- for everyone and any one - but for those who want it ). My husband is less sure. He really struggles seeing my point of view . As a result things like how our wills and lasting POAs deal with end of life decisions reflect our respective wishes. I will do for him what he would want ( it’s what I would want too ironically- my belief is in providing what the individual desires where that outcome is known ) and has has undertaken to honour things like my DNR.


It’s not FOR me to understand his perspective. It’s his. I resent that as it stands others’ perspective and religion impacts mine - but I wholly recognise it’s not out of malice!

 

[whiteraven]

Does this have to be something you ‘get’ for others?

Actually, yes. It's more than just needing to understand why someone prefers the color green over the color blue. That would not make me think (much) and it would likely not leave me reconsidering how *I* think about color.

 

[Ronin]

A-ha.

Okay, try the other take...

You view making people live as a cruelty, right?
I think this is where we fundamentally differ, as I see helping people live as merciful/kind/caring/compassionate (don't have the right antonym & language atm. Tldr not-cruel. )

But I see wasting people, who could have very well lived, maybe even well, even if with additional difficulties, as very cruel.

And not trying to help / save what of person IS salvageable / prolong life as abominable lack of caring and gross on a soul deep level.

Something that also feels very not-me.
Something that f*cked my head for decades whenever it *was* me.

A kind of - Been there, and nobody can drag me back there.

 

[whiteraven]

Ok...that's interesting.

 

[Tinyflame]

Thanks for responding @whiteraven .

It sounds like you're very busy, maybe to the point of needing to slow down a bit? And oh no, I realize, not more cats 'now', but in your lifetime.

I know this thought well..

In the end, I am awash with the feeling that none of it matters. Now or later. I'm not entertaining that notion while I'm doing (although I get involuntary intrusions of thoughts and images sometimes that are related), but after...I have no idea why I bother.

.. in so far as sometimes I feel like that movie title, :"the unbearable lightness of being".

I don't know if this is helpful, but I think even of what you mentioned, those are wonderful, but solitary activities. And when tired, or introverted, (or traumatized) it can be easier to be on one's own.

I think not having family, etc, poses a different challenge. In so far as meaning something to anyone, is bound to be a preventative tie. But you have a unique understanding of others who feel alone or removed: in their situation, or illnesses (even when surrounded by others). That is invaluable, to them, and anything but insignificant. But it can also be very depressing or more isolating, when others alongside don't understand the difference.

But I heard something, we should hope to treat ourselves as we would our pets. And we know how our hearts are moved that way, or for any animal in general. But would we consider putting them down, if they were afraid, confused, could not settle? And I wonder how much comes from the anxiety, that is itself draining to the point of depression/ not caring. If they were at the end of their physical life, and they could, they would go off on their own. But they have an incredible will to live, maybe because they are loved and secure, Idk.

I did read a very useful book called something like, How I Stayed Alive While My Brain Was Trying to Kill Me, and it reminds me that I do better if I'm not 'thinking', along with, ~would I think this is ok for an animal?, or would I seriously consider doing this or allowing this, to/ for my animal?

Also, the future may surprise you, but in good ways. New or better relationships, opportunities, ways of seeing yourself and the world, who knows? That's what surprises are about. (That's hard to feel when exhausted, or isolated though).

 

[TedWNY]

How about emotional suffering?
I understand physical end of life decisions.
I'm not sure I feel that emotional suffering ever merits that course of action though.
Tough call there. Any thoughts??


very good thread. thanks.

I have cPTSD and a chronic arthritic condition since ~20, now 60. Fused spine and neck. The emotional pain has been FAR greater than the physical pain I have endured. And the emotional pain has led to my feelings that death is an option to end the suffering, even as I make a slow recovery.

 

[Ronin]

If you made it this far...

Why rob yourself of the chance to live further now, and leave all of that effort and struggle and pain and strength behind you in vain?

Make it be nothing and not mattering at all?

Living on gives all that crap meaning. Sacrifice of & for others that made & make sure I live not in vain, either.

<< Is to me the important question.

 

[Tinyflame]

I came back because I was thinking of this. I remember one time in my life where I really felt hope, that (somehow) things would be ~ok. I could live more engaged with others, and more engaged with my own life. Also more at peace within myself. I know SI (or assisted death at least too, was off the table, and I had SI only following an event that felt pretty 'non-emotional', really. :confused: ). But I had great fear/ distress/ physical pain, etc etc, and yet that's how I felt. Maybe despite even sometimes being happy or 'living it up'/ distracted, still better than then too? I really, really hope I could find how to do that again. [ETA 'can find', I really have to learn to think positively. :rolleyes: ]

But like @Ronin said, the truth is giving up does become stopping. Stopping everything. Not necessarily finished, just out of commission.

So maybe it requires some belief in one's own value, or at least interconnectedness to the world at large, as well as what makes up one's own life/ perspectives.

I have a feeling, it's probably true for me that without connection I just 'float off'. It's too- what's the word? Easy? Relief? (But dangerous, if I admit it).

Welcome to you, @TedWNY , btw. :)

 

[GrayOwl]

Welcome TedWNY.
Best wishes in your recovery.
Keep the faith. It can get better.
37 years of therapy and constant vigilance for me.
Some pretty painful and dark times. Today is good.
Even on painful days. Recovery is slow.
Hope all is well.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Yeah, but shattered legs can be repaired.



Ok. So...what about people do you believe in? It seems like there is some sort of inherent thinking among folks - and not something that is easily justified without just saying that's how it is - that says, "people/humans, by their very nature, are valuable and should stick around as long as possible." (my interpretation only) Which I generally think is BS, but...

I'm interested in *why* people think that way.



Hm...so there are some people not worth believing in?

To me, believing in people means believing they can choose for themselves.

While shattered legs can be repaired, so can shattered souls. Shamanic journeyers believe in soul retrieval-finding lost parts of one's soul due to trauma. This belief has helped me...

 

[TedWNY]

......I have a feeling, it's probably true for me that without connection I just 'float off'. It's too- what's the word? Easy? Relief? (But dangerous, if I admit it).

I can definitely relate to this! Probably part of the reason I “force” myself to be involved in things.

 

[whiteraven]

the truth is giving up does become stopping. Stopping everything. Not necessarily finished, just out of commission.

Yeah. Right now that doesn't matter to me, at all.

So maybe it requires some belief in one's own value, or at least interconnectedness to the world at large, as well as what makes up one's own life/ perspectives.

Very, very true! I have no inherent belief in my own value and right now I have other people telling me I am of no value, either.