Suffering vs Death

[whiteraven]

I don't understand at all why people believe it is preferable to live with immeasurable suffering than to die.

Just not getting it.

I'd love to hear thoughts...

 

[Friday]

I will shoot someone who is dying screaming.
I will not shoot someone who is screaming in pain from a shattered leg.

Pain’s the same, outcome’s different.
It’s a judgment call.

 

[Ronin]

I believe in people.

Shooting is for people not worth believing in.

&? If someone is so stuck on destruction it's my both duty & honor-everything / sacred shit to persuade them otherwise.

Leaving people to their kill ideation as the best they've got means I'm a lazy bum who didn't even *try* using his skills.

 

[whiteraven]

I will shoot someone who is dying screaming.
I will not shoot someone who is screaming in pain from a shattered leg.

Pain’s the same, outcome’s different.
It’s a judgment call.

Yeah, but shattered legs can be repaired.

I believe in people.

Ok. So...what about people do you believe in? It seems like there is some sort of inherent thinking among folks - and not something that is easily justified without just saying that's how it is - that says, "people/humans, by their very nature, are valuable and should stick around as long as possible." (my interpretation only) Which I generally think is BS, but...

I'm interested in *why* people think that way.

Shooting is for people not worth believing in.

Hm...so there are some people not worth believing in?

To me, believing in people means believing they can choose for themselves.

 

[Ronin]

It doesn't even have to be linked that way.

In, many times my premise was the complete opposite (people, altogether, are crap.) Still doesn't mean they should be left to rot.

Doesn't matter what I believe about value or reasoning. Only what is to be done // course of action is the same. Try to save to the utmost of your ability. Sort out petty differences later / leave that to other governing & legal bodies to sort.

And my other note doesn't apply to simply suicidal as in mental health or atm crisis or what have you citizens.

It meant people who(se) actions are immediate threat to lives of others / more specific, lives of others, mass scale. Or who try for such results.

Where yeah. Their victims not becoming ones come first, always.

It's not as simple choice as black & white.

People who are not even in a space to see their own value in the world rate help. Not being let to act on deceptions & lies that they don't matter.

Or: Lies that kill. I hate those. Lies that protect and assist lives are acceptable.

 

[Friday]

Yeah, but shattered legs can be repaired.

Exactly.
It’s not killing them.

Hence the different outcome. I’m willing to shoot the person who’s dying. I’m not willing to shoot the person who isn’t.

Doesn’t mean it’s going to be good as new. I’ve seen people with bones so broken it’s like marbles in a toothpaste tube, or thousands of spinners sticking out of them like a porcupine. Nothing for it except to amputate (Well, Nothing for it back then. These days there are 3D printed bones, cadaver bones, etc. that are in trial &/or use, if you happen to be lucky enough to shatter your leg in the right part of the world, in the right way, with the right resources to hand). Countless others who spend years in and out of excruciating surgeries, rehabs, bone infections, nerve damage, more surgeries to repair old damage, or new damage from weakened structures, and surgeries that didn’t exist 10/15/20 years ago. Major injuries like that? Often end careers, destroy marriages, sink people into poverty, cause years and decades and lifetimes of extreme pain & suffering.

So why not just shoot everyone with a broken leg? Or anyone with a broken leg who asks to die?

Because whilst the potential is there for them to have miserable lives full of suffering, the potential is ALSO there for them to have amazing lives, whether they’re full of suffering, or not. As well as for amazing lives to follow years of misery.

I’m not god. I can’t tell them what kind of life they’re going to have. But if I’m IN their life? I’m also not going to be the abusive sonnuvabitch who tears them down, treating them like some kind of worthless piece of shit who doesn’t even have a chance at an amazing life. Not now. Not ever. f*ck that noise. If someone is in my life? I’m going to do everything in my power to shoot for amazing.

I don’t care how much someone’s hurting. It can get worse, and it can get better, and it usually does a bit o’ both. So, personal choice, I choose strength. To get through the hard times, to find the amazing. So that’s how I treat others. Because I want people in my life, who choose strength, and who believe in me no matter how f*cked things are. Rather than the abusive SOB’s who not only think I’ve got no chance, but are willing to help ensure I don’t have a chance. Be the person you want in your own life, ya know? If I am holding onto a cliff, sweating, cramping, hurting, despairing? Do I want the person who comes up to me to agree, yeah, I’m totally f*cked. Might as well let go! Here, lemme stomp on your fingers. That’ll make it easier for you to just f*cking fall, already. Or someone who will fling themselves down to try and help pull me up? Or at least cheer me on if they can’t reach me? Shrug. And if I’m by myself? Same goes. Whether I succeed in pulling myself up, or not? Is very different from not trying. I might die trying. And I’m okay with that. But I’m not dead, yet. Where there’s life? There’s chance. Might not make it, but I’ll sure as hell try.

Which is why my personal rule is:

If your death hurts? Die better. If your life hurts? Live better.

 

[GrayOwl]

Begging back to the original question:

I think I understand their ("people") logic and hang-ups and fears about death. Human nature. Fear.

Immeasurable is one part of the equation. Irreversible would also factor in.

Put both together and I think it's cruel to remove the choice.

How, and by whom are further questions. But not really relevant to the question you asked.

So, yes, I think it is important to understand and accept. That requires a lot of compassion and bravery that few in our society are capable of dealing with. Add politics and no good decisions are likely to be in the mix. As I age I find moments where I am more accepting of my fate. And of those around me. Then I see my grandkids (7 & 8)- they have no capacity and experience that allows them to deal with those concepts and questions without fear. Call it spirituality or maturity or knowledge or whatever.... there isn't a lot of the brain matter around that lets many people make wise decisions or carry on wise discourse on this subject.

7 years ago my Mother was stricken and given 0 chance of sentient life. I was given the choice of tubes forever or morphine for pain and let her slip away. I chose the latter for her. Fortunately we had discussed it many many times. It took 5 days. It was the "kindest" our society allows. A couple years before that, my 72 yr old uncle was stricken and confined to dialysis and a room for the rest of his mortal life. No pain, completely sentient. He did puzzles all day. After 8 months he instructed them to pull all life support. 8 hours later he was gone. Bless his soul. Good call. If you're ready.
4 years ago I was stricken with what I would call immeasurable pain. 7 months of agony, no sleep, no remedy. But I agree with Friday. "I'll sure as hell try!!" Until it was immeasurable, irreversible, and hopeless - not time to go - not this time - not for me anyway. Surgery alleviated the pain. It's been worth sticking around. But I was reckoning with the final choice had surgery not worked.
That is a personal decision that I think each and every one of us should be allowed to make for ourselves. And for those who may count on us - family, friend, animal, mineral, or vegetable...…. if need be.

How about emotional suffering?
I understand physical end of life decisions.
I'm not sure I feel that emotional suffering ever merits that course of action though.
Tough call there. Any thoughts??


very good thread. thanks.

 

[whiteraven]

How about emotional suffering?
I understand physical end of life decisions.
I'm not sure I feel that emotional suffering ever merits that course of action though.
Tough call there. Any thoughts??

I'm still trying to process responses here (it's 3am, which might have something to do with it), but I did want to respond to this. I don't think it's black and white. Physical merges with emotional, and vice versa. But I think bringing an end to long-term emotional suffering should absolutely be an option. I understand the reluctance of many, as "things can always get better" but, in fact, some people suffer for decades, are miserable for a very long time. I not only think ending the suffering should be an option; I think not to allow or even consider it is cruel.

I know. Not a lot of folks share that thought, but...I guess after 5 decades of mostly suffering, I don't find it unreasonable to think death is a viable option.

 

[ladee]

I may be off the mark here as I am not working with my 'best brain'. But from my own experience, many times things didn't get better, but they did get 'different'.

Maybe that day my inner turmoil did not control all my feelings. Maybe that day or that hour my brain calmed down and wasn't bouncing thoughts like golf balls hitting a wall.

Getting 'better' is subjective. I was content to have a break in the constant noise going on. I could get a tiny toe hold into something more than pain. If only for a short while. But it did give me something to compare it to. For me, that was where 'hope' was born.

Life is not about always being happy and no problems. It's about learning how to handle and navigate the hard times and be damned grateful for the breaks in the insanity and pain.

We DO have a choice to continue or not. I never felt I had to have a conversation about that choice. It was always there. And not to sound all PollyAnnish here, but I could focus on the pain, which to a great extent, I did in order to try and heal what I could, or I could insist that life was not worth living.

I had to be openminded to the possibility of healing. And that journey is not pain-free. Some things are untreatable. I get that. But there are a gazillion things that can be improved. Life is a bitch sometimes. So what. And that is not negating your feelings at all. It is just a plain fact of life.

And again, this is my experience. It matters to me. It is valid that I fought all those times I didn't think I could. It was worth every single doubt and hard time to be where I am today. And I still have that choice to end it. But it's not an option anymore. Because I love the life I have worked for. And none of it came easy. None of it.

 

[Tinyflame]

I think death comes to everyone, so it might help to identify what exactly is unbearable: is it physical pain, absence of purpose, isolation/ absence of connection, anxiety, lack of strength, terror, inability to sleep, inability to forget, other people's words, abuse, loneliness, grief etc (etc), then to start on simply one. And I like the suggestion aim for 1% more per day. I too believe emotional and physiclal are interconnected, and IMHO usually the emotional harder to bear. If you can identify what is causing the suffering, you have some chance to alter it (not even with the intention to solve it, don't even think that far ahead- but to suffer less).

So...what about people do you believe in?

Well, everyone is going eventually, maybe ourselves or others right away and we don't know it. But if they haven't there is an interconnected purpose, possibly. If you are alive you can say a kind word, give a smile, give a hug, say a prayer, save a cat (or dog), speak or listen, have an opinion, be an example, choose to believe, reach out to others, or do any other positive action. And even if you can't do those things, someone maybe can do them for you. I think it's a bit of a domino affect with humans- even your smile to a stranger may change events you'd never know. But like @ladee said, it takes commitment. For example, instead of fearing for your cats, and thinking when they're gone you will be, adding more cats, because you are committing to living like you're staying, vs living like you've left already (in your mind). (And I say that humbly, because I likely do it myself, at least. Maybe you don't. For me, it was pretty subtle/ subconscious.)

I don't believe it's just not trying hard enough. And they're learning more that it may involve the reward centre of the brain. Doesn't change it (for now), but what brings you peace, what do you love, what makes you laugh or smile? What have you never tried? What brings you comfort? And do something each day: one thing required; minimum one thing fun; one thing comforting. Maybe try one thing brave a week, something to look forward to that is within some of your choice/ control; things can get tedious and in a rut. And oh my- try to avoid people and situations that hurt you or disturb your peace.

Maybe you've never done anything for yourself @whiteraven , and now is time to start? :hug:

 

[whiteraven]

Thank you everyone for responding. I'm not going to reply directly, but rather just put my thoughts out there.

I work incredibly hard to be where I am (it isn't where I want to be, but working harder just doesn't seem possible right now). I do all sorts of things I care about. I live understanding that many of us need to learn to have a different relationship with suffering - that it really is necessary, at least for some of us, to grow and learn. I do not in any way, shape, or form believe that any of this or getting past any of this is easy.

I'm painfully aware of what is unbearable for me. And I do work on stuff a little bit at a time and look for solutions, for things that will move those things from unbearable to not so.

I'd love to get more cats. Can't. Can't afford them, this community doesn't allow more than two, and neither of mine would appreciate a stranger coming in. And yes, I think about getting more when I can.

I live like there is a tomorrow, even when I don't care if I make it there or not. Some days are worse than others; I move between anxiety and depression and dissociation every day, but some days - worse than others.

I do all sorts of stuff that I have been/am passionate about. I'm learning Arabic and Russian. I am studying feline behavior and animal communication. I have studied and can work with animals and energy. I'm planning on taking a color therapy course. I write. A lot. I have a workshop I've prepared and am looking for a place to present it. In fact, I'm doing much more now than I used to.

In the end, I am awash with the feeling that none of it matters. Now or later. I'm not entertaining that notion while I'm doing (although I get involuntary intrusions of thoughts and images sometimes that are related), but after...I have no idea why I bother.

Anyway, no matter. I appreciate the replies.

 

[Ronin]

:sneaky: Something incredible I saw around here a few years ago:

Everything you'll do in life will be insignificant,
Yet it matters you do it, as nobody else will.