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News The neurons that rewrite traumatic memories
- Post starter MyPTSD
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I was afraid of this. It’s so weird that you are just posting this because this has been on my mind for weeks.
My worst r trauma place I haven’t been back to and I am terrified to be even 20 miles from it. I’ve been telling myself I’ll have to go back one day. My heart is racing thinking about it.
Thanks for the article. All the talk therapy is getting me no where and EMDR made things worse.
I need to find a new T specialized in this. I just can’t imagine trusting another T but I must do this and keep fighting.
My worst r trauma place I haven’t been back to and I am terrified to be even 20 miles from it. I’ve been telling myself I’ll have to go back one day. My heart is racing thinking about it.
Thanks for the article. All the talk therapy is getting me no where and EMDR made things worse.
I need to find a new T specialized in this. I just can’t imagine trusting another T but I must do this and keep fighting.
Swift
Diamond Member
Hey thanks for the articles.
@Faith Andrews have you heard of neurofeedback/brainwave retraining therapy?
It's what I'm doing atm and I think it's helping. It's focused on reprogramming your brain in real-time to reduce PTSD symptoms.
The science behind it is a) really solid, b) has evidence and c) is really cool.
Happy to tell you a bit more about it if you like.
@Faith Andrews have you heard of neurofeedback/brainwave retraining therapy?
It's what I'm doing atm and I think it's helping. It's focused on reprogramming your brain in real-time to reduce PTSD symptoms.
The science behind it is a) really solid, b) has evidence and c) is really cool.
Happy to tell you a bit more about it if you like.
Swift
Diamond Member
Cool.
Let me just do the usual disclaimer of, this kind of therapy might not be your cup of tea, I'm not in any way qualified to provide medical advice, I'm not, yknow, saying this is 100% the only way to do things, yada yada.
Okay. Anyone who knows me from the forums knows I'm a bit of a nut for this kind of stuff, I used to work as an EEG tech, so I'm not entirely talking through my hat.
So, basically, up until pretty recently, the dominant theory was "localization", certain bits of the brain did one thing, served one function and one function only, and the brain was basically set that way from birth and didn't change once you stopped developing.
We now know that's not true, because people can wipe out entire hemispheres of the brain, and other bits of their brain pick up that function. The brain can learn new patterns and new circuits, because it's not concrete, like localization believes, but "plastic", which is why the dominant theory now is called "neuroplasticity."
It's partially what the article is getting at - that neurons and neural pathways can be rewired with training.
Neurofeedback, the type of therapy I'm doing - you hook your brain up to an EEG - Electro Encephalo Gram, meaning Electrical Brain Picture machine. The EEG reads your brainwaves, forming a picture on the screen for the therapist.
Brainwaves have an ideal "range" that they should stay in. PTSD makes you over-excited in some areas, like your back/survival brain, and under-excited in some others, like your hippocampus, which does the where-when in space and time function.
You play a game on the screen with your brainwaves. I call the one I'm playing "telekinesis pac-man."
Pac-man will move if my brainwaves are in the range that they are meant to be, and stop moving if they aren't. Until I calm them down, and he starts moving again.
Your "successes" in the game stimulate your brain's reward system. It goes, hey, I wanna move Pac-man!
So. You get a dopamine hit when your brainwaves are doing what they should, and you don't get one when they're doing what they shouldn't.
This programs your brain to associate good brainwaves with good feelings.
Because the brain is plastic, it then works on changing the brainwaves so they're like that most of the time.
It's painless, and they only stick the electrodes to your scalp with a little bit of paste. Some people compare it to Aversion therapy - that thing where they give people electric shocks to train them out of certain thought patterns, is kind of neurofeedback's evil twin. On crack.
Neurofeedback relies on totally positive stimuli. Aversion therapy relies on totally negative stuff, and is punitive and diabolical IMO.
So, I think it's significantly improved my baseline of HV and general PTSD anxiety symptoms. There are protocols (brainwave patterns to train on) for things like nightmares, dissociation, etc. I've never found anything that's worked on the HV before.
The pros as I see them: working directly with your brain to change maladaptive patterns, non-invasive, real-time feedback. They often will state "no side-effects", which is technically true, because the effects aren't in addition to what it's supposed to do, just, if the protocol's wrong there can be unintended effects. It calms me down, I think more clearly for a coupla days after, and it drastically reduces the HV. Over time, it changes your baseline for the better.
Neutral: there's not much actual trauma work. Like. You focus on training your brain, not on going back through bad memories. I quite like that, and it will make me more stable for when I do trauma work in the future. But, if you're looking for reprocessing, it doesn't do that.
The cons, as I see them: it's imprecise because everyone's brain is different, there's no absolute set method that will work 100% of the time. You have to let the therapist in your space to put electrodes on your head, which is only about 2 minutes, but on my bad days I'm like, no way, and sometimes you train the wrong range and get an unintended effect that will last a day or two.
If you've got any questions I'm happy to answer as best I can.
With new therapy, especially technical stuff, I often worry about random things like, what if I blow up the machine, or what if my brain is so whack it's unfixable, or what if it isn't whack at all and I'm just being a drama queen. You can't blow up the machine via telekinesis, the electrodes are 'reading' electrodes and not actually capable of emitting electricity, there are no unfixable brains, and no completely perfect ones - even if it's all in the 'normal range', if that range isn't working for you, it can still be worked on.
Let me just do the usual disclaimer of, this kind of therapy might not be your cup of tea, I'm not in any way qualified to provide medical advice, I'm not, yknow, saying this is 100% the only way to do things, yada yada.
Okay. Anyone who knows me from the forums knows I'm a bit of a nut for this kind of stuff, I used to work as an EEG tech, so I'm not entirely talking through my hat.
So, basically, up until pretty recently, the dominant theory was "localization", certain bits of the brain did one thing, served one function and one function only, and the brain was basically set that way from birth and didn't change once you stopped developing.
We now know that's not true, because people can wipe out entire hemispheres of the brain, and other bits of their brain pick up that function. The brain can learn new patterns and new circuits, because it's not concrete, like localization believes, but "plastic", which is why the dominant theory now is called "neuroplasticity."
It's partially what the article is getting at - that neurons and neural pathways can be rewired with training.
Neurofeedback, the type of therapy I'm doing - you hook your brain up to an EEG - Electro Encephalo Gram, meaning Electrical Brain Picture machine. The EEG reads your brainwaves, forming a picture on the screen for the therapist.
Brainwaves have an ideal "range" that they should stay in. PTSD makes you over-excited in some areas, like your back/survival brain, and under-excited in some others, like your hippocampus, which does the where-when in space and time function.
You play a game on the screen with your brainwaves. I call the one I'm playing "telekinesis pac-man."
Pac-man will move if my brainwaves are in the range that they are meant to be, and stop moving if they aren't. Until I calm them down, and he starts moving again.
Your "successes" in the game stimulate your brain's reward system. It goes, hey, I wanna move Pac-man!
So. You get a dopamine hit when your brainwaves are doing what they should, and you don't get one when they're doing what they shouldn't.
This programs your brain to associate good brainwaves with good feelings.
Because the brain is plastic, it then works on changing the brainwaves so they're like that most of the time.
It's painless, and they only stick the electrodes to your scalp with a little bit of paste. Some people compare it to Aversion therapy - that thing where they give people electric shocks to train them out of certain thought patterns, is kind of neurofeedback's evil twin. On crack.
Neurofeedback relies on totally positive stimuli. Aversion therapy relies on totally negative stuff, and is punitive and diabolical IMO.
So, I think it's significantly improved my baseline of HV and general PTSD anxiety symptoms. There are protocols (brainwave patterns to train on) for things like nightmares, dissociation, etc. I've never found anything that's worked on the HV before.
The pros as I see them: working directly with your brain to change maladaptive patterns, non-invasive, real-time feedback. They often will state "no side-effects", which is technically true, because the effects aren't in addition to what it's supposed to do, just, if the protocol's wrong there can be unintended effects. It calms me down, I think more clearly for a coupla days after, and it drastically reduces the HV. Over time, it changes your baseline for the better.
Neutral: there's not much actual trauma work. Like. You focus on training your brain, not on going back through bad memories. I quite like that, and it will make me more stable for when I do trauma work in the future. But, if you're looking for reprocessing, it doesn't do that.
The cons, as I see them: it's imprecise because everyone's brain is different, there's no absolute set method that will work 100% of the time. You have to let the therapist in your space to put electrodes on your head, which is only about 2 minutes, but on my bad days I'm like, no way, and sometimes you train the wrong range and get an unintended effect that will last a day or two.
If you've got any questions I'm happy to answer as best I can.
With new therapy, especially technical stuff, I often worry about random things like, what if I blow up the machine, or what if my brain is so whack it's unfixable, or what if it isn't whack at all and I'm just being a drama queen. You can't blow up the machine via telekinesis, the electrodes are 'reading' electrodes and not actually capable of emitting electricity, there are no unfixable brains, and no completely perfect ones - even if it's all in the 'normal range', if that range isn't working for you, it can still be worked on.
@Swift thanks so much for the information.
My neurologist has performed an EEG on me before and it was painless. I’m so glad I have done it before or I doubt I would even consider it.
I love the idea of not having to go through trauma memories. I can’t take much more of that.
Again, thanks so much for the information. I’m going to talk to my current T and Psychiatrist and request referrals for other therapists.
My neurologist has performed an EEG on me before and it was painless. I’m so glad I have done it before or I doubt I would even consider it.
I love the idea of not having to go through trauma memories. I can’t take much more of that.
Again, thanks so much for the information. I’m going to talk to my current T and Psychiatrist and request referrals for other therapists.
Lamename01234
Bronze Member
@Swift thanks for that information. I start neurofeedback in a few weeks. I was found out in my town we have one of the best places in the united stated, as the psychologist has worked with Bessal Van Der Kolk. I am attached to my therapist but she suggested this as the tinnitus started the same time traumatic memories surfaced. I feel better after reading your post, knowing what to expect. I guess i meet with the psychologist then a therapist does the actual neurofeedback and i am also thankful my insurance covers it at a $10 co-pay.
How often do you go?
Do you take medication and do neurofeedback?
Thanks again
How often do you go?
Do you take medication and do neurofeedback?
Thanks again
Swift
Diamond Member
Glad to be of help.
I go about once a week.
I take meds, and the neurofeedback doesn't interfere with that side of things at all, which is great.
We did an intake appt first, which I hate doing and was as vague as possible throughout. I keep unintentionally dropping bombs on my T that I didn't mention in my intake appt. Then, we rigged my brain up to the EEG. I've got a fairly typical trauma brain, in that my lizard brain is overactive, my hippocampus is underactive, and my frontal/critical thinking is fine, but doesn't talk to the rest of my brain the way it should, and the lizard brain engages first.
Dissociation is also visible on EEG, which has been really interesting for me, because that's one of my most major symptoms.
The EEG, because it connects to your brain in real time, also shows what kind of day your brain's having. It's really interesting to see how my brain looks when I'm triggered, or when I'm having an anniversary reaction. I broke my hand super-badly recently, and even watching that mess with my brain was really interesting. I asked my T if we could see what happened when I made it hurt (because science!!!) And the pain, instead of spiking a pain response, made me dissociate.
Also, the EEG machine we use is a qEEG with EEGr software. You can code your own pictures or music into the software, which is neat.
Because it's a "quick" EEG not a normal EEG, the whole process is much less intense. With a standard EEG, it's a diagnostic test, so your tech is going to be paying less attention to your comfort levels and more attention to the outcome of the test. We need to get the impedence as low as possible, which means a lot of rubbing, scrubbing, fiddling, and more intense/prolonged physical contact. If we don't attach the electrodes absolutely securely, with 0-1 ohms impedence, your EEG can look like you have a disease you don't, like epilepsy, or miss critical diagnostic signs, like where in your brain the disease is located.
It's not that techs don't care about your comfort level, it's just that it's the tech's job to ensure you get the best possible EEG, not that you have the most comfortable experience possible, because if we stuff up your EEG we can miss a potentially life-threatening disease, or you can end up being treated for something you don't have, which, with epilepsy can mean no driving and lots of hardcore pharmaceuticals. The stakes are pretty high, and we assume you'd much rather have an accurate test than a comfortable experience. (Also, our jobs ride on the accuracy of our tests, not the comfort level of our patients.)
Neurofeedback EEGs are the other way around. The goal is that you have the most comfortable experience possible, that your T is in your space/touching you as little as possible and that is much, much, much more important than impedence or electrode accuracy. My T's acceptable impedence is 15! Mine was less than 1!
Because neurofeedback isn't diagnostic, a bit of artefact doesn't matter. But as a tech you'll lose your job if you give doctors tests with artefact in them, and risk misdiagnosing your patient.
I only have about 4-6 electrodes per session on my head. An EEG is 36 on your head and 2 on your chest.
So yeah, the neurofeedback process is a lot more patient-friendly than a normal EEG. I was expecting it to be the same, and boy was I pleasantly surprised. I was kinda laughing at how, just, inexact it was compared to a normal EEG.
And, if there's a particular thing that triggers you, you can let your T know.
Two books I read were The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Doidge, which was a good read, and Calming the Fear-Driven Brain: Neurofeedback in the Treatment of Developmental Trauma by Sebern Fisher, which was clinical but fascinating, and so accurate in parts I wanted to throw it across the room. Fisher's book gave me a really good idea of what to expect.
I go about once a week.
I take meds, and the neurofeedback doesn't interfere with that side of things at all, which is great.
We did an intake appt first, which I hate doing and was as vague as possible throughout. I keep unintentionally dropping bombs on my T that I didn't mention in my intake appt. Then, we rigged my brain up to the EEG. I've got a fairly typical trauma brain, in that my lizard brain is overactive, my hippocampus is underactive, and my frontal/critical thinking is fine, but doesn't talk to the rest of my brain the way it should, and the lizard brain engages first.
Dissociation is also visible on EEG, which has been really interesting for me, because that's one of my most major symptoms.
The EEG, because it connects to your brain in real time, also shows what kind of day your brain's having. It's really interesting to see how my brain looks when I'm triggered, or when I'm having an anniversary reaction. I broke my hand super-badly recently, and even watching that mess with my brain was really interesting. I asked my T if we could see what happened when I made it hurt (because science!!!) And the pain, instead of spiking a pain response, made me dissociate.
Also, the EEG machine we use is a qEEG with EEGr software. You can code your own pictures or music into the software, which is neat.
Because it's a "quick" EEG not a normal EEG, the whole process is much less intense. With a standard EEG, it's a diagnostic test, so your tech is going to be paying less attention to your comfort levels and more attention to the outcome of the test. We need to get the impedence as low as possible, which means a lot of rubbing, scrubbing, fiddling, and more intense/prolonged physical contact. If we don't attach the electrodes absolutely securely, with 0-1 ohms impedence, your EEG can look like you have a disease you don't, like epilepsy, or miss critical diagnostic signs, like where in your brain the disease is located.
It's not that techs don't care about your comfort level, it's just that it's the tech's job to ensure you get the best possible EEG, not that you have the most comfortable experience possible, because if we stuff up your EEG we can miss a potentially life-threatening disease, or you can end up being treated for something you don't have, which, with epilepsy can mean no driving and lots of hardcore pharmaceuticals. The stakes are pretty high, and we assume you'd much rather have an accurate test than a comfortable experience. (Also, our jobs ride on the accuracy of our tests, not the comfort level of our patients.)
Neurofeedback EEGs are the other way around. The goal is that you have the most comfortable experience possible, that your T is in your space/touching you as little as possible and that is much, much, much more important than impedence or electrode accuracy. My T's acceptable impedence is 15! Mine was less than 1!
Because neurofeedback isn't diagnostic, a bit of artefact doesn't matter. But as a tech you'll lose your job if you give doctors tests with artefact in them, and risk misdiagnosing your patient.
I only have about 4-6 electrodes per session on my head. An EEG is 36 on your head and 2 on your chest.
So yeah, the neurofeedback process is a lot more patient-friendly than a normal EEG. I was expecting it to be the same, and boy was I pleasantly surprised. I was kinda laughing at how, just, inexact it was compared to a normal EEG.
And, if there's a particular thing that triggers you, you can let your T know.
Two books I read were The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Doidge, which was a good read, and Calming the Fear-Driven Brain: Neurofeedback in the Treatment of Developmental Trauma by Sebern Fisher, which was clinical but fascinating, and so accurate in parts I wanted to throw it across the room. Fisher's book gave me a really good idea of what to expect.
shatter eyes
Diamond Member
I have the Muse band. It is for focus and mindful training and has 6 electrodes.
Its funny because when i record my brain waves the right side is overactive and the left is low with bursts of really weird waves then flat again. My tbi bleed was on lefty.
It be nice if there was a HV program for Muse band.
Its funny because when i record my brain waves the right side is overactive and the left is low with bursts of really weird waves then flat again. My tbi bleed was on lefty.
It be nice if there was a HV program for Muse band.
shatter eyes
Diamond Member
I wonder how I can retrieve or rewire those neurons responsible for coding when I dont remember. How do TBI folks recover?
This is why I did not do EMDR because I really dont remember and talk therapy samething... blank.
This is why I did not do EMDR because I really dont remember and talk therapy samething... blank.
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