The War in Iraq

[anthony]

I guess you could say America was once the recognised super power in all aspects, not military power, but economy. It is not bombs that make money, it is growth and forward thinking. The US excelled in that years ago yet got very very lost along the way... like all good things, there are negatives that will drag a positive down. I believe a lot of US commercial sectors got greedy. They wanted it all as fast as possible, which has helped bring down the US economy. The US is now used as an example around the world of what not to do, and where not to go in future planning and development. I guess as unfortunate as it is, your loss is the worlds gain. But why I guess is the big question? I believe it has a lot to do with greed, and whilst that is not the average joe blow citizens issue, it is now their issue because the top tipped over.

 

[TDurden1937]

Well . . .

Hey Doug, sorry it came across that way to you, not actually my intent. My intent was to show you the other side of the fence, that was all. My apologies.

When you refer though to stepping up to the plate, exactly how do you as a US citizen believe it is your place to step up to any other countries plate unless asked to do so? And even then if asked, why do you believe it is your countries "duty" to help another if the Government is not capable of helping its own country already? Doesn't that only make matters worse? Supporting another country is something you do if you can last time I looked, it certainly does not fall as a "duty" to any country. I think this is a mistake on US citizens thinking if that is the case.

I don't think I ever said that and if I did it was a mistake in what I wrote. I think you misjudge me. I am pro people. I absolutely believe that the US GOVERNMENT should keep their nose out of other countries business . . . . absolutely.

On the other hand, my question is not rhetorical or idle debate, or a trap set for you or anyone . . . what happens if the US goes isolationist . . . a perfectly straight forward question.

 

[anthony]

Well, it could never actually occur as the country doesn't have all the required raw resources within the continental US to maintain its current progression. If any country attempted to isolate itself entirely, it would still require imports and exports to create wealth and increase its wealth. If lets say, the US decided to completely shut down, no imports or exports, then it would self implode. Now that is not an issue to the rest of the world as it would recover around the import export market, regardless which country ever did such a thing, but the country would eventually implode, it wouldn't grow, it would become quite poor in actual fact and go backwards.

North Korea pretty much does this now, apart from it still imports and exports as that is what creates its countries wealth, though the country as a whole is imploding because there is no real growth. Population increases but without infrastructure. What does this lead to? Turmoil, chaos, food shortage, civil unrest.... Now if you took the imports and exports away from North Korea, it would absolutely implode and be broke within a few years. The countries citizens would eventually revolt and mass numbers would die. The same would occur to the US.... you would kill yourselves more than already occurs due to civil unrest. Law and order would be nil, industry would halt and implosion would be a certainty.

Does that answer what your asking from my viewpoint?

 

[anthony]

Oh, and if you also refer in that question about other countries order, being military matters, you would actually find the world would be much happier if the US just stayed home and stopped interfering in other countries matters. The US invades other countries, it doesn't go into them by being asked... so why wouldn't that countries citizens fight back? If China invaded the US because lets say your law and order fell over, they didn't wait to be asked, they just decided to step in and take control because they have so much money invested in the country. What would American citizens then focus on? They would focus on killing the chinese. Why? Because they don't want them in their country, they didn't ask them to be their, and even though law and order fell over, they where prepared to sort it out themselves.

This is the exact scenario of most countries surround the US invading them. The US need to park their battleships, planes and everything else in its country, patrol around its own country only, and stay out of everywhere else its not invited to be.

 

[TDurden1937]

I guess you could say America was once the recognised super power in all aspects, not military power, but economy. It is not bombs that make money, it is growth and forward thinking. The US excelled in that years ago yet got very very lost along the way... like all good things, there are negatives that will drag a positive down. I believe a lot of US commercial sectors got greedy. They wanted it all as fast as possible, which has helped bring down the US economy. The US is now used as an example around the world of what not to do, and where not to go in future planning and development. I guess as unfortunate as it is, your loss is the worlds gain. But why I guess is the big question? I believe it has a lot to do with greed, and whilst that is not the average joe blow citizens issue, it is now their issue because the top tipped over.

Although I do not agree that the US economy is in the pits as deeply as some think, I agree completely 100% in EVERYTHING else you said.

Let us now speak reasonably together. I have suspected the moral decline in values in the US to have a tremendous effect on the US PEOPLE for some time. As you say, GREED is rampant. You are in a much better position to judge world opinion probably than I, because I don't watch TV because it is morally outrageous, and simply stupid. The news broadcasts are worthless shit, so if I want information I go to the BBC on our Public TV, or the BBC news feed.

If Australia has a news feed coming out of your wonderful country I would appreciate it if you would give me the address.

I finally saw the cumulative effect of what I saw coming when Enron collapsed, around 40,000 Americans and other nationalities lost any investment and all their retirement. This profit maximization that Enron did is repeated all around the US by businesses, in my opinion. Short term profits are routinely maximized here in the US, by almost any means, any means.

A great example of business bullshit in the US was the big auto makers, Chrysler, General-Motors, Ford, etc stating that they couldn't make a fuel efficient car and stay in business. That is until the Japanese imports started coming in and then when they were losing money they started making more fuel efficient cars.

I think dear mate, that if we just drop the posturing that you and I have much much more in common about what role the US plays in world affairs than you think.

Frankly, although I admire the basic framework of the founding fathers set up, in my opinion it has been perverted by corruption and greed for years perhaps hundreds of years and now bares only a vague resemblance of that once wonderful ideal. If I were to choose where I had been given birth I'm not sure I would have voluntarily chose the US . . . . Maybe New Zealand.

The US has been behind some very nasty stuff over especially the last 50 years both in domestic and foreign policy. And the moral climate in the country continues to decline, and the work ethic is in the pits. The victims of this nasty stuff has not only been the other nations of the world, but the citizens of the United State too. Like I said, the motivation for the VietNam war, according to the Pentagon Papers was resources, tin, rubber, and oil . . . and a major motivation for the Iraq war I suspect is oil. Thousands and thousands of my ****ing mates have ****ing died 'cause some goddamn politicians wanted to make nice to the goddamn ****ing business lobby. And I ****ing hate the ****ing us government for doing that, I ****ing hate it . . . . . got that mate!

I hope you understand me a little better now.

 

[anthony]

Doug, I think a lot of people hate the US Government. If China collapsed, that would affect the world in ways I don't think we could even imagine.... Every country plays a role in the world economy, even New Zealand. The world economy could lose certain players without effect, others would affect it, though it would continue regardless. No one country holds the balance of world economy though...

A lot of countries have periods where they do stupid shit, Australia is certainly not excluded from that. That car issue is certainly a big one, I agree. Holden makes a killing here in Australia, they are the dominate car maker here. Ford are going down the shit tubes, Mitsubishi is closing their Adelaide plant next month I believe and going back to Japan. It is cheaper for them to build the cars in Japan and export them to Australia than build them here. Typical.... Ford closed their engine building plant last year I think it was.... and may even close their manufacturing plant depending on profits... taking them back overseas and exporting to Australia.

Australia has its own little problem looming on the horizon, being our major export is coal. China loves coal, big buyer of it, however; with all the emissions targets now being introduced and the further push for clean emissions to be met, our major export may soon become redundant in the future. Australia will certainly have its own issue at that time....

Added: Sorry, forgot... Sky News Australia is the pay TV news source. http://www.skynews.com.au

 

[anthony]

I usually have sky active on here during the day, which has all nine primary channels on the screen so I can watch all the news from headlines to business, CNN, UK news, world basically, etc.

 

[upstream]

eh, never mind. post deleted.

 

[TDurden1937]

My Bloody Iraq Thread Sucks . .

I didn't quite finish my post on MY Iraq thread . . . I took a little time off, brb, lol.

But I'm afraid to go back to my thread and post it there . . . . 'cause I'm fearful of what I'll . . . do or feel. So I'm posting it here.

So then . . .

Some don't like the way the US GOVERNMENT treats other countries. . . . it doesn't treat other country nice.

So, MY GOVERNMENT, sends me to SE Asia to fight for tin, rubber and oil resources . . . its all in the Pentagon Papers.
Over 50,000 of my mates are dead over that deal . . . and it was all a lie. All a lie.

Now, 40 years later, MY GOVERNMENT, wants to send my son . . . . that's my son, and his mates over to Iraq to fight for resources . . . oil.

I not only don't like my federal GOVERNMENT, I hate it, and I hate every thing it stands for . . . and I hate it for ****ing in the ass the beautiful thing the founding fathers made.

So that's my Government who killed Saddam, good thing too I still say, but now what . . . Iraq's in bloody turmoil.

Returning GI's on this forum say if the US GI's leave now there'll will be a blood bath . . . it's not me sayin' that.

My life has been one ****in' flash back since our boys rolled into Baghdad. Now MY GOVERNMENT is ****in' my sons generation in the ass as well.

****in' kill my son and his mates too, while yer at it then.

So some don't like the US GOVERNMENT . . . well boo hoo, try living and being governed by the bloody criminal bastards, eh.

Bush is a ****in' criminal and all those who work with him, and I don't care if the FBI snoops my email and monitors my posts on this site!!!

Bloody bastards!

Go ahead put me under moderation , ****inl ban me . . . better yet, put me on the moon so I don't have to live on this Satan infested planet.

 

[Lisa]

Wow you're angry.

Can't say I disagree with your anger actually, if I was you.

Like I said... I comment on what affects me politically. This affected you. I think you actually have a right to talk about what your government has done to YOU. Just like you have a right to vote and all that...

It's not fair that you've got PTSD. It's not fair that it's affected your life so much. And now you're frightened for you're son.

I can't blame you for that.

 

[anthony]

Please keep your rant in this thread, do not spread it around the forum or you will end up in moderation.

 

[Awakening]

I reckon this thread would also fit into the Sleep Management section....