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General Theory Of Suicidality - Combat Vets In Particular

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but they have also spent years overcoming the natural instinct for self preservation. How else can you explain soldiers advancing into enemy fire?
Yes and no. Soldiers aren't trained to die, we're trained to fight smart and effectively, to kill and not be killed, is the aim and training behind it. We aren't trained to disregard our self preservation, but instead to fight the fear of flight or freeze, and instead only use fight. That is the training... so us soldiers don't already have #3 there. Sure, we're probably closer than most to have it as a constant, but we aren't trained that way to toss self preservation out the door. If we just ran forward to die, then there would be no purpose or logic in the training, and people would reject it.

You would be surprised how effective moving forward under fire is. Most can't understand the logic, but its actually quite hard to hit a moving target vs a static one. If you stay in one place, fire directs onto you and will likely kill you. You keep moving, you're actually more likely to live through the experience.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with Joiners three suicide aspects, they're well engrained into suicidal theory today. But we veterans do not automatically have #3 due to our training... as that is not our training. Maybe a suicide bombers, but not a soldiers.
 
we veterans do not automatically have #3 due to our training... as that is not our training.

Don't you think a soldier's exposure to death and violence would realistically desensitize him/her to the horrors of suicide, compared to civilians? Therefore aiding him in "overcoming the instinct for self preservation"?
 
What you think is self preservation, is not necessarily accurate in the scheme of conflict.

A civilian runs away, they think that is self preservation. Ok... tell that to all the civilians killed during all the past centuries wars. That is one hell of a list... far more civilians are killed per capita than military on average. So with that in context, soldiers are actually trained to stay alive. Soldiers are trained to identify when to retreat, when to attack, when to fight another day, when to hide and wait.

Combat veterans do not meet #3 by default... our training is quite substantial to self preserve, ourselves, our buddies, civilians, so forth. We are trained to protect through the use of attacking and defending.

Suicide is high for combat veterans because the pain is often substantial, trying to resolve what we've done based against what is right or moral, combined with support after the fact. Many combat veterans are given little support after discharge. America is by far the worst offender for this and has an enormous veteran suicide rate. America has the mentality to support the troops, war, guns, lets go kill people... put serving soldiers on pedestals, but then drop them like a hot rock afterwards, when the shit hits the fan back home. Australia and the UK are different (certainly there are holes) and have fairly adequate support structures in place to help combat veterans financially, full medical and dental care for life, private psychological support as they need at a location near their nearest town / city, cheap medication if needed, so forth.

Quite often the highest rate for suicide is being abandoned, feeling they have no purpose, no future, no hope to get out of the rutt they're in. That puts anyone very much squarely within #3, because you see no reason to preserve your life. That is different from training and serving in war though.

What is mentioned here you may understand better in a article to be released in the coming week that discusses the veteran crisis, the problems and possible solutions.
 
Tater "warned" me very soon after we met that he had PTSD. We were an ocean apart and had only emailed a handful of times when he told me. I don't have the letter anymore as it was actually written through E-Bay, but I do recall that he either specifically said or I inferred that it would not surprise him at all if I didn't want to communicate with him after knowing about the illness. Both then and now, it makes me sad to think that he must have expected me to run away... I must assume that's because it was the reaction he got most often when he started talking to someone. That would certainly make someone feel like they don't belong.

Little did either of us know then that my relationship with him would turn out to be the most meaningful I'd had thus far in my life.
 
I probably didn't articulate that very well. Joiner talks about habituation to violence. He mentions ER doctors, paramedics etc. He also talks about anorexics who learn to ignore the needs of their body. Both can lead to the acquired ability to seriously self harm.

I take your point that training is not designed to make soldiers run wildly into the jaws of death, but it is intended to overcome the "flight" side of the flight/fight response. You are still training to overcome the human instinct for self preservation and replace it with other response. Which in fact increase your chances of survival in that circumstance, but the end result is the ability to override your emotions and your bodily needs.

My vet has often said his job was to put himself in harm's way. I can't remember the terminology but he talks about the need to move through the arc of fire - to go through that doorway knowing that for that moment you are vulnerable. He was known for leaving his cover to move around his troops making sure that they were all sufficiently undercover. You get the impression of "I love the smell of napalm in the morning"... He often says that death is the ultimate bludge.

And when he is focused on achieving a mission then no amount of pain, cold, hunger, tiredness stops him. Whether its test riding a horse with three broken bones in his back or repairing a wet metal gutter in negative temperatures despite his carpel tunnel syndrome or hiking up a 1 in 10 gradient hill for 3km despite the bursitis in his hip.

So, I respectfully disagree @anthony - I believe that combat veterans are further down the road towards the acquired ability to seriously self harm than the average civilian. Which makes doing something about the perceived lack of belonging and the perceived burdensomenss all the more important.
 
What you say about your husband doing tasks even when injured, that is normal for soldiers, as we're taught to fight through the pain and keep going. You don't lose it.

Agree to disagree, sure... though please be aware I am up to date on the psychology behind military training, and I suspect your husband knows it more than he may think specifically about the psychology, but would recognise the below statements made.
but it is intended to overcome the "flight" side of the flight/fight response
You can't say that military training is intended to overcome the flight side of the response (singular). Training is designed to actually overcome the freeze response, that is combat trainings primary objective. They don't want you to freeze, because freeze is dangerous.

What training achieves is it teaches the ability to fight / flight with accuracy. When to fight, when to flight. Flight is actually taught as part of tactics, and is not just a withdrawal component, but flight is enhanced when taught, teaching tactics of when to flight from x and fight from y position instead. Flight / Fight go hand in hand in tactical combat, we soldiers ARE NOT taught to override it at all. That is completely incorrect based on the fundamental psychology of tactical combat training.

It's like changing to a flanking attack, were fighting forward may not be allowing you to advance as fast as you need or as safely, so the commander of the team will send x members into flight (withdrawal) whilst others provide covering fire. Those members then tactically pursue a different agenda to enter the Fight again.

Combat soldiers ARE NOT taught to override flight as a singular premise, only freeze (and only freeze in a combat fire situation). So sure, agree to disagree, but the theoretical writings disagree with your conclusion. Let your husband read this, he would understand the tactical logic in the underlying psychology of his training to confirm that it is only freeze trained out of us.

Freeze is attempted to be over-riden through repetitious drill training, fire and movement. Shot rings out, there is a repetitious procedure drummed into our head to follow and deviate as needed based on the situational assessment. A literal choice is made in the initial assessment to fight or flight, and this assessment is constantly being made by the commander at the time based on the situation.

I mentioned freeze in a combat situation, because freeze is also taught and enhanced (husband again) for when setting up an ambush. Soldiers lay still for hours on end, no movement, no noise, total freeze, awaiting the enemy.

In the sense of fight / flight / freeze when under fire though, that is where freeze is trained out of us as much as possible. Some still succumb to freeze, its a powerful response... but that is the only one taught to override and go towards / away from the danger, as freeze is deadly, fight and flight improve the chances to live another day depending on the situation. The usual ratio is 3:1 when engaged. More than that, most Australian soldiers will flight, because the odds become enormously stacked against you, though again, situational assessment determines the end action, as sometimes you must fight when outnumbered because flight may cause more casualties as a result of the landscape and exit.

Don't think of flight as running away when talking about soldiers, because that is far from what happens. Flight is used to tactically withdraw, which means a combination of fight / flight is being used to suppress whilst x soldiers fall back, then they suppress, repeat cycle. Flight is as much of a life saver as fight, to soldiers.
 
Joiner talks about habituation to violence. He mentions ER doctors, paramedics etc. He also talks about anorexics who learn to ignore the needs of their body.
I haven't read up Joiner's work yet, so maybe I'm missing the point. I wonder if where he's going with this, maybe, is that some kinds of experience make death seem more normal and possible than the experiences of the average person. You get used to the idea, to some extent, and more comfortable with it?

I've thought about this, maybe more than is healthy, for a long time. And wondered what the line consists of between actually killing yourself and just thinking about it. I have kind of a gut feeling that it might be a little easier to take the actual step if "Death" feels kind of familiar. As it would to someone who's been in combat, or worked as a first responder. (I might be totally off track here!) Even being comfortable with the idea of getting hurt, seems like it might make it easier to take an actual step that results in your own death.
 
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