News Us politics - read first post before comment

[Muttly]

I am a huge supporter of programs that help homeless people. I volunteer often with organizations that help homeless. We do need to do more, but it is a complex issue. I think right now, what would help a great deal, is to change the attitudes folks have about homeless. The majority still assume that homeless people are addicts, criminals, mentally ill, making a choice, etc. As we don't live in a socialist country, support has to come from a variety of forms, including charities and have buy in from the public. We have one of the worst, maybe the worst, issues with homelessness. Much higher than detroit. The mainstream media here is frequently running pieces about the problem of homeless. Those pieces often do not include all the facts, like they will state that people turn down offers of shelter, without stating the reasons. They will also repeat information that has been disproven, like large numbers of the country's homeless community are coming here because our services for homeless are so great.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

think right now, what would help a great deal, is to change the attitudes folks have about homeless.

I couldn't agree with this more. Most homeless I've met are folks like myself. Hard working decent folks that are disabled but are unable to get help. Florida seems to be insane about help for disabled. My step mom faught for 5 yrs for disablity and was denied all 5 yrs and had to start all over from the beginning. Went up to CT and got disability instantly. The wage vs price of living gap is insane and even middle class is being affected by that. Who the f*ck can live on a single income here? And if I had kids forget it! So, it's not all drug addicts and the scum of the earth that are homeless. It's the hard workers and disabled as well. Many vets are homeless as well.

 

[joeylittle]

In America, the state you live in determines a lot, re: access to social services. Again, this is a by product of living in a non-socialized country. State’s Rights and all that.

I’m curious, though - for those of you in socialized nations, is your access to services limited by your geography? I’m familiar of stories from Canadians about both quality of and access to medical services varying widely by province and city...in America, we would generally just say, change states, if you can.

Putting aside the typical barriers to moving (money, time) - is it the same kind of challenge in socialized countries?

(Sorry for the derail, I know this is a US politics thread...)

 

[blackemerald1]

In Aus., certainly if you reside on the East Coast - and in the most populated areas your access to any kind of service is more likely. But so is the demand. Ppl tend to migrate towards the cities and thus these services are there if one can get it or be deemed eligable.

Because living in the metropolitan areas is so expensive there is a huge demand for public housing which is increasing. People can wait up to a decade to be allocated a place to live and it may be far from any other necessary service they need. Medical, public transport etc.,

In the regional areas there is a huge amount of demand and pressure but unfortunately not a lot of services. Very little public housing or affordable private housing for that matter. Health - medical and mental health...not good at all if actually exists.

In the Northern part of our continent services are at best scant if at all and most likely all government provided. People that need urgent attention are usually flown to larger hospitals in regional areas if they have the facility needed. If not then they are taken to city hospitals.

One thing I noticed during a long stint of being homeless. I required hospitalisation but the hospital would not accept me because I did not have a home address. So I was not treated. Apparently insurance and hospital policy dictates they cannot discharge a patient to No fixed address. So they will not take them in for treatment. This is our grand public hospital system at work here folks.

We also have a looming crisis in our much lauded National Insurance Disability Scheme - which was announced in 2014 and is now being rolled out in various areas across the nation. It is a tax-payer funded scheme to gather all disability support providers into the one organisation instead of having lots of different providers etc., doing their own thing. Since they started the roll-out the application process for people who are already receiving some kind of support etc., has gone seriously wrong. People who want to get into the system are being turned away multiple times. The people in charge seriously underestimated how many people are living with a permanent disability within society.

This same scheme is also meant to provide assistance to ppl with permanent mental health problems. The application form does not have any place for information relating to such a disability.

This scheme does not take the place of any other private or government agency that is responsible for providing support. Even so, it has come under huge criticism. So it could go belly up any day. There are also some very nervous politicians wondering how this scheme is going to be fully funded.

Sounds like we have similar problems as in the US. Happy days....

 

[lostforgottensoul]

One thing I noticed during a long stint of being homeless. I required hospitalisation but the hospital would not accept me because I did not have a home address. So I was not treated. Apparently insurance and hospital policy dictates they cannot discharge a patient to No fixed address. So they will not take them in for treatment. This is our grand public hospital system at work here folks.

Even if they were dying? That's f*cked up! I think in America they have to treat you for life threatening things no matter what (I think). I went to the hospital for pink eye because I didn't have health insur. It is the issue here in America. No health insur = higher cost on hospitals, which is what, I think, ObamaCare was supposed to fix. But, my step mom couldn't afford ObamaCare soooo...

People who want to get into the system are being turned away multiple times. The people in charge seriously underestimated how many people are living with a permanent disability within society.

Add in a ton of people on government assistance that doesn't need it and that sounds like the US disability system. Make it impossible for those that need it to get it (if they don't have someone to pay the bills while they wait) and a shit ton of people on it that don't need it. f*cked is what I call that!

 

[blackemerald1]

Even if they were dying? That's f*cked up!

Well I don't know about dying. I'd imagine if you were dying and had social security benefits of some type then your ambulance fees would be covered and you would be admitted to a public hospital because most public hospitals do not turn away ambulances that rock up with someone in them. What happens after that is a bit of 'pot luck' about your treatment.

In my case I wasn't dying right then and there and I was in my doctor's rooms at the time. There is a lot of pain and time between requiring medical treatment and dying. I was very lucky I was just seriously ill and obviously I lived:happy:

Oh while I am on this subject our government requires people of a certain age and or income to obtain private health insurance or they incur a tax levy/debt to pay each year. (Incentive to pay therefore) You can avoid this if you are on social security. Wow what a choice! Social security isn't actually an option nor is it easy to get and it doesn't allow you to rock up to a hospital for admission when you need it...you go on a long waiting list and get no say when or where you will be admitted. And yes... lots of people do die waiting. The dead don't vote.

Private health insurance is a great option except it is run by private companies who want to make lots of profit (obviously) and don't want to cover a normal person for most relatively normal health issues or pre-existing conditions and there are so many exclusions I would go insane listing them all. But a good example is no dental treatment apart from an annual clean?? - Unless you can afford a huge premium every year and extra money too bc they just will not pay for all of whatever you need. Obviously the higher the premium the more you can insure yourself for - except for all the exclusions. Hospital admission is supposed to be a fundamental part of private health insurance but there is almost always a gap or I think US citizens call it a co-payment.

So prior to getting sick and before you go to hospital - you have to check (if you have private health insurance) that, a) you are going to a hospital where they (the insurer) and hospital have a 'agreement' and your doctor or a doctor the private health insurance company approves of can work (and that doctor or surgeon will also usually have a co-payment he wants above what the private insurance will pay and, b) what those gaps may be (it's often cost prohibitive) forcing someone who requires admission to opt for a public hospital admission which then means they must go on a very, very long waiting list and take the doctor or any doctor who happens to be working in that hospital at that time. And...never ever tell them you are homeless..:cautious:

So it is common for a person to pay private health insurance, if they can afford it (to avoid the tax levy) and then go on a never ending waiting list for a 'public admission' because they cannot afford the huge gap payments they must pay if their use private their health insurance. :wtf:

But if you are young, healthy and never ever get sick or injured and can afford to pay huge premiums for the rest of your life...you have nothing to worry about at all....:eek:

So when T told our prime minister in a meet and greet at the WH a while back and congratulated him on our countries 'very generous' health system I nearly chocked. This was whilst T was attempting to dismantle Obamacare... :hilarious:

Another example:- injuries sustained as a result of motor vehicle collisions that require hospitalisation and treatment. Australian drivers pay Insurance upon registering their cars annually and believe me its big enough to choke the average horse. This Insurance is compulsory but a staggering amount of vehicle owners do not pay it and run the risk of hefty fines if they are caught. I don't think ambulance is covered in all States so you could die from the bill from that alone if you do not pay for Ambulance cover or if it is not incorporated in private health insurance or if you are not on social security.

We have so many forms of insurance here that a huge amount of people and families are just opting out of it all. They would rather eat and send their kids to school. :tup:

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Well I don't know about dying. I'd imagine if you were dying and had social security benefits of some type

Homeless = no income which means no social security (generally). Here in the US, I believe, if you had something life threatening they must treat you even without insur of any kind. So, what about those not on social security or have any health insur but had life threatening issues?

So it is common for a person to pay private health insurance, if they can afford it (to avoid the tax levy) and then go on a never ending waiting list for a 'public admission' because they cannot afford the huge gap payments they must pay if their use private their health insurance

This is what, as I understand it, what ObamaCare was supposed to be. It was also supposed to be affordable. Hinse Affordable Care Act. But it wasn't in my step mom's case. She was paying less without insur then she would have paid for ObamaCare. Affordable? Really? And then I disliked forcing people to get insur. I get the cost of hospitals if no insur. I totally get that. But once you force people to do anything it's no longer a free country. But to then make that said "affordable" health insur so damn high that one cannot pay for it, forcing then becomes ridiculous!

I know a lot of people on here are insured by ObamaCare and that's great but if you're going to force all people to go on it or have private insur you better damn well make sure all people have the means to do so. Oh, and make a website that actually works so people can sign up.

Maybe ObamaCare was modeled after Austrailia?

They would rather eat and send their kids to school.

Right?!

 

[mumstheword]

Homeless = no income which means no social security (generally). Here in the US, I believe,...

Here in Australia we have Medicare.

Everyone is entitled to hospital care for free and gp's are sometimes "bulkbilled" sometimes not, meaning as long as you have Medicare you either pay nothing, for basic doctor services and diagnosis assessments and such, or you may and get most of it rebated.
We have limited public mental health services and most aren't trauma informed although sexual abuse and domestic violence counselling often is, much more frequently available if you're a woman.
Sometimes you get lucky though, I have some wonderful free counselling it just took me a long time to find it, but now that I have it, it's for as long as I need it. Maybe the National disability insurance scheme will change that though, it hasn't been.properly rolled out yet, so we don't know the extent of the damage to mental health services incurred via our NDIA (national disability insurance agency). Having said that there are some great people employed in the NDIA, it's just very new and there are lots of clitches and clunks to iron out. It's not proving very user friendly yet.

You can also get 10 counselling sessions a year with a psychologist via your local gp through a "mental health plan", or physio and chiro and osteopaths but not naturopaths.

Some private health care insur extras covers naturopaths and Chinese body work and the like, but it's generally not covered by the public system.

Hospitals treat at their own discretion, is what I've found. I had great care after a miscarriage but total negligence and discrimination after a long term DV break up and the shattered after effects because the local community health psych "care" has pigeonholed me as a borderline and hospital staff couldn't wait to throw me out with no care. I was homeless at the time, but that wasn't why they didn't want to treat me. I had acute stress trauma symptoms and the public system just tends to be shit and totally inept when it comes to acute trauma care, at least it is here, in a regional.part of New South Wales.

 

[Friday]

Here in the US, I believe, if you had something life threatening they must treat you even without insur of any kind.

It varies state by state.

Most states are required to stabilize you enough to transport to another hospital, but that’s it. So if you’re brought in holding your foot that’s been cut off by farm equipment? A tourniquet is applied.

You’ll still die if you don’t seek immediate medical treatment, but you won’t die right now / it buys you a few hours.

Most states are required to have 1 at least public access hospital, and they’re required to treat everyone, but only to the bare minimum standard of care.

So, using the farmer holding his foot as an example
- Nearest hospital emergency room = applied a tourniquet and sent him away

- County Hospital (our state only has 1 public hospital) = tosses his foot in the medical waste bin and sews up His leg, and gives antibiotics and painkillers to take home... or amputates at tourniquet (depends on how long it took him to get there, too long without blood and the portion of his leg deprived of blood will have died and be going gangrenous. Keeps overnight at least 1 night, maybe 2-3, then sent home with antibiotics and painkillers.

- GOOD Medical insurance = Admitted to hospital, foot reattached in surgery, stays in hospital for observation to make sure no infection sets in and to begin rehab, a couple weeks in total. Sent to physio/rehab to regain full use of his leg & foot. Expect 1-2 years of ongoing medical care.

- CRAP Medical Insurace = Admitted to hospital. Wait for insurance preapproval dor surgery... takes so long the leg has to be amputated (spend the next 2 years* fighting them for payment of that surgery, rather than the rearrachement whichnthey approved a week after the amputation)... have to receive approval for every day in hospital, have it periodically denied... the moment ICU care is no longer required (couple days) be discharged, and spend the next 2 years* fighting them for payment... wait for preapproval for months for physio/rehab, get approved, then be denied and have to quit, reapply, rinse lather repeat a few times... fight for 2 years* to get them to actually pay for physio/rehab. >>> During the interim 2 years * whilst your fighting them for payment, be several million dollars in collections, have your wages garnished, property seized/ leaned/ foreclosed.

* 2 years = the average amount of time it takes to get payment for treatment they already approved. It can take as long as 7 years if they didn’t approve it, but debts fall off the record at 7 years so it’s a bit of an “eh” (as long as you weren’t silly enough to make even 1 payment towards the debt, which resets the clock... hence why collection agencies will blow up your phone during year 6. If you pay a dime towards “your” debt? They have 7 more years to collect.)

Ambulances also have 2 different sets of rules, for state & Private.

- Firefighter/paramedics (state) are required to pick up anyone who calls for them, regardless of ability to pay or how bad off they are (totally fine, to almost dead on scene).

- Private companies can refuse transport if you’re deemed “high risk” (of no insurance, or likely to die en route, as that messes up their successful transport stats & means billing the estate the 10k fee, which takes longer than billing a live person )

It should also be noted that
- paramedics = EMT + 2 to 4 year Paramedic degree (most states only hire paramedics)

- EMT = 3 month course, and is greatly restricted as to what procedures they can perform. Private companies usually hire EMTs (minimum wage job) and are largely made up of wanna be cops/firefighters waiting for admittance to the academy, wanna be nursing students completing their 1500 hours of “field experience in an acute care setting” to get accepted into nursing school, future paramedics, or medical students paying their way through school. It’s not a job most people do for longer than a year or two / incrediably high turnover.

It’s the exact same difference as a CNA (3 month certification) and an RN or BSRN (4-5 year certification). EMTs & CNAs can’t do jack shit as far as patient care, paramedics and nurses have seriously hefty education and experience.

 

[scout86]

I required hospitalisation but the hospital would not accept me because I did not have a home address. So I was not treated.

I haven't had any reason to look into this for quite awhile, maybe things have changed, but I found the whole "lack of an address" thing to be a problem in this country (the US) as well. Not so much with hospitals. Seems at least some of them are more than willing to dump people on the street, ready or not. But, for most government programs (like subsidized housing) there's a line on the form that requires an address. And they aren't real impressed when you fill in "the rusty orange and white truck in the Walmart parking lot".

@lostforgottensoul , what you're talking about is what I've always described as "the Republican version of the war on poverty". Seems to me they'd just as some people die and get out of their way. But, it comes down to a philosophical difference on who's worthy of help and where that help should come from. (My take anyway.) First, you're supposed to help yourself. And your family is supposed to help you. In conversations with people who are sold on these ideas, it's been my experience that most of them have spent their lives in situations where both of those things were a viable option, and they have trouble grasping the idea that that isn't always the case. Then there are supposed to be charities etc that pick up the slack. It's not supposed to be the job of government. (Do I actually have to say I disagree with this? What else is "government" for? Looking after the "common good", right?)

President Obama, I think, recognized that health care is one of the things that's fairly screwed up here and lots of people have trouble affording it. The idea, basically, was that if everyone chips in, at a level they could afford, we'd have enough money to pay for stuff. That's a nice idea, but not without problems. To begin with, there are plenty of people who object to the idea of chipping in money that will, ultimately, pay someone else's bills. And, you have insurance companies, drug companies, etc, worried about making money and making their stock holders happy. Then you have politics. The whole "liberal/conservative" view of the role of government mentioned about. And, you have the role of the states, some of which have liberal governments and some of which have conservative governments. (I think this explains your step mother's experience with Obamacare. You live in a conservative state. They were pretty stingy and people paid a price for that. In a more generous state, her experience probably would have been different. Don't blame Obamacare for that, blame your state legislature.)

I think I said this before, near as I can tell, the problem goes back to "people aren't earning enough money for the work they do." Does it make any sense that a job like "teacher" or "nurse" leaves you so close to the edge that you need a second job to make ends meet? Not to me it doesn't! Ok, maybe, once in awhile, due to bad choices or bad luck, someone with that level of education falls on hard times, but this hardly seems rare these days. And I'm not going to say the solution is to raise the minimum wage. More people need to be earning ABOVE the minimum wage! Wages haven't kept pace with the cost of living in a lot of places. Government, in this country, has done all it can to fight unions, which, IMO are about the only way a working person has to negotiate with an employer. We live in a global world. If you can pay someone in a third world country a dollar a day, why would you keep the jobs here, where people can't live on that? If you want the job, you have to compete for it by accepting less money. Or, you find a way to qualify for a job that pays better. Which isn't all that easy either.

 

[blackemerald1]

Homeless = no income which means no social security (generally).

Oh no here in Aus., homeless ppl are working full-time and a second job and living in parks. Married and with kids - just no home. Kids go to school like they have a home. It's just a really big secret. They have no access to public housing and cannot afford private housing. It never used to be that way but it is now. (Read stagnant wage growth for over a decade). Calling on you there @scout86 !!

what about those not on social security or have any health insur but had life threatening issues?

I've come across many in a former life. It's just bad luck...a bit like what Friday explained... The prognosis is never good.

health insur so damn high that one cannot pay for it, forcing then becomes ridiculous!

Yeah...but naah. Private health insurance is jacked up annually here. We all got told a few months ago that the hike 'wasn't as bad as the last six years worth of hikes...so we should feel lucky and good etc about that'. This is why ppl are leaving private health insurance and most other types of insurance in their droves... They just cannot afford it. So the pressure is mounting every year on a public system that doesn't want them either. We are back to @Friday description...

Maybe ObamaCare was

Naah..I think we had Medicare long before you had ObamaCare... but then our Government about 20 years ago (I think) mandated...everyone of a certain age and or, income has to have private health care or you will get hit with an extra levy...

Everyone is entitled to hospital care for free and gp's are sometimes "bulkbilled" sometimes not,

Yeah but naah!!! What you are entitled to and what you get are entirely different. Like I said...dead ppl don't vote... Tell most Medical Director's of public hospitals this and see how much treatment you get...

Sometimes you get lucky though

Yeah..sometimes. Isn't that a line out of Dirty Harry... are you feeling lucky today well are you???? I would not bet my life on being lucky.

Some private health care insur extras covers naturopaths and Chinese body work and the like

Just what we all need...when we have blood poisoning and cancer. :unsure:

Hospitals treat at their own discretion, is what I've found.

Discretion...hmmm Excuse me while I go and die discreetly...lol

The National Disability Insurance Scheme roll out is an absolute F**K Up* Even they are now saying it themselves. Don't count on it helping anyone out much. It hasn't been funded. Actually nobody knows how much it's all going to cost...yet. It has already exceeded initial estimates and it isn't even rolled out across the whole country. It's a debacle. A lot of ppl are hurting really bad bc of it. They lost their original providers on the promise that the NDIS would take up the slack but woops it's not happening any time soon.

I want to run away to a nicer place actually....:laugh:

 

[joeylittle]

Don't blame Obamacare for that, blame your state legislature.

Ding ding ding, this right here.

Oh no here in Aus., homeless ppl are working full-time and a second job and living in parks. Married and with kids - just no home.

This is true in the US as well. Not all homeless are also unemployed, and not all the unemployed are homeless. I don’t know the statistics.