When situations like you are describing came up, all kinds of things would happen and I'd freeze and disassociate and explain the whole thing away somehow.
Yes, that’s all very familiar to me...freeze, dissociate, then explain it all away as “not that bad”, make excuses for them, blame myself and then ultimately dismiss it because I probably had it all wrong anyway and I may even be making it up! It’s a hard, hard cycle of responses to get out of. I didn’t really do this with the adult friendship situations. Though, having said that, thinking on it, I do think there was some freezing going on. With the things when I was younger that were assaults/abuse though...yep....all those things...and I still sat there in therapy this week explaining away why a teacher came into my room on a school trip, locked the door behind him, stroked my over my PJs and kissed me. And the great irony is, I used to be a teacher myself and I absolutely know I would never, ever have done anything anywhere close to this with a kid. Yet somehow, I always find a way to let them off the hook. I suppose the slightly positive thing in this on-going “habit” is that, although I sat there with my T the other day making excuses for why he did what he did (and, you know, it wasn’t even “that bad” anyway because it’s not like he raped me or something!) I did at least wince inside when I heard myself say it. So, perhaps something is starting to shift on that front...?
I can see why this would be the ultimate in pay-off's. But it is a negative pay off. It does not have to be positive at all.
Ah, yes...that’s it and that’s helpful to know that a pay-off can be a negative pay-off. Thanks!
It went down the drain very quickly when they effectively tried to ambush me into a sexual liaison. I was utterly dejected with their response to my 'no'. I tried to fix it by being more useful and more worthwhile but ultimately it all failed. I felt like there was something so completely wrong or lacking within me that my only true use was a sexual relationship.
Ooh, I identify with this so strongly.
be sufficiently worthwhile in terms of intelligence, intrinsic human value and any other usefulness except sexual. And then when it doesn't work...disappear, disappointed and re-affirmed in my belief (even if wrong) that this is the 'ultimate' goal everyone has and I hate it and feel affirmed in my disappointment? It's a huge distortion but a big pay-off to be even more remote. Horrible cycle...
And this. Sorry to hear that you struggle with it too.
I read an article that outlined why trauma bonds are strong in a way I understood it..They talk of chemicals a lot
Ok, that’s interesting - the idea of chemicals. I’ll look into that.
I think I feel compelled to make men who have low empathy to have feelings or empathy for me.
Judging by what you say about your mum and dad and thinking how their relationship must have been when you were growing up, I think it makes sense that you have this desire/motivation.
As far as flirting goes, be open to the possibility that different things mean different things to different people. I have no way of knowing how your "friends" interpret flirting. But then, have you got actual evidence that they see it like you do?
Oh, yeah, absolutely! The bit you quoted there...I just meant that the other poster and I had completely different views on that. Neither was right or wrong - I’m sure plenty of people will agree with him and other people will share my views and others will have other interpretations again. In any kind of relational stuff, differences in interpretation and meaning is fundamental, I think.
I think for me though, the thing I struggled with wasn’t the flirting and what that did or didn’t mean to me or them...I knew I had flirted and therefore recognised that I had played a part in where we now were and I considered that they may have been confused or felt misled. So, I got that. And gave myself a pretty hard time every time about being such an idiot! Where I then really struggled was that, after the first time they made some kind of move, I said a very clear know and we discussed it and, from that time onwards, I absolutely didn’t flirt anymore. And still they would make another lunge. And get another no. And then repeat, repeat, with my hope that this time they would get it and hear and respect my no, but no, this is still ending up the same way. So, yes, again, that is partly on me for still continuing to engage with them at that point. But I also find it difficult to understand why, after several clear no’s and no more flirty banter (over a number of months, not just on that next meeting) they continued to try to kiss me or make really graphic suggestions of what they’d like us to do together. And, that isn’t just me putting it all on them and I can’t ask them now what they were thinking then to help me better understand what was going on back then. I just found it all so confusing. And, in the end, it just felt like they were pushing and pushing the boundaries that I was holding really firmly and repeatedly ignoring my explicit verbal no. I guess the boundary I didn’t ultimately set down was the ending of the relationship - not until much later, anyway. If I’d have had better boundaries, I guess I would have walked away a lot sooner instead of keeping going back there hoping things would turn out differently.
It sounds like you were probably pretty mature for your age, which might be why it was more comfortable hanging out with them than with your classmates.
Yes, I think so.
But it also sounds like they didn't handle the whole "boundaries" thing very well.
Nope!
Because it wasn’t just harmless nice chat and confiding in me about some things because we got on, although that was part of it. They crossed some physical boundaries too. Not in a hugely “serious” or traumatic way. But in a way that was highly inappropriate and that has definitely led to some confusion, embedded some trust issues that were created by earlier trauma and now has me unpicking some relational fallout.
My partner - who is a senior teacher - was horrified when she found out and said if I’d have reported them now, they would get sacked. I think she finds it hard to understand why I downplay what they did when I used to be a teacher myself and was very clear about my boundaries in relation to pupils.
But I think maybe you find out who your friends really are when you see what happens after you say "no".
Ain’t that the truth!
Not sure why I kept at it.
Same here!
Almost like being a bear-attack survivor, then going and poking a bear, by engaging in flirtatious banter again (which there is nothing wrong with this), and then being really ready to try to talk the bear down - talk them out of a sexual encounter again - and then doing it again.
Your bear attack analogy explains it very well - thank you! I think my therapist was sort of saying this (but with no mention of bears, alas!) a couple of sessions ago when I was talking about the adult friendship stuff but I hadn’t yet shared the teacher stuff. She said about how we can often use flirting as a way of testing the relationship/the boundaries of the relationship. And that we are hoping for and looking for - though usually not consciously - the other person to hold the boundary of the platonic friendship and to not respond to the flirty by taking the relationship to an actual sexual level. So that we feel we can trust the relationship because it is safe and solid.
It’s a risky approach, I think, because not everyone will continue to hold that boundary and that doesn’t necessarily make them bad people. And I’m not sure how fair it is to expect them to never respond sexually. Which kind of brings me back to that negative pay-off that
@blackemerald1 articulated...so, I’m testing the boundary because what I really want is for you to show me that this is safe, that you and our relationship is trustworthy, that my worth and value is not just linked to - and dependent upon - us having sex. And when that boundary wobbles and they make a move - especially multiple times after multiple no’s - that becomes proof that people are not to be trusted and that relationships are not safe and that people are only really interested in me if they’re going to get to sleep with me.
Hmm,..ok...!
