Relationship When Is It Ptsd And When Is It Abuse/ Manipulation?

[HëllaBubz]

I hope you don't mind a sufferer posting here, but I thought I might add another view if that is ok with you.
I'm REALLY, REALLY not liking what I'm reading. Obviously you can't give us the entire picture and all elements, but wowser, this rings alarm bells for me big time.

Both times when I would get off the phone he would send me a text that told me in a round about way what he was thinking.

First thought: sneaky, manipulative, having the last word, trying to get more attention. (have experienced this firsthand)

When I try to talk about an issue he says his brain is jumbled and he's trying to think of things to say then can turn to people walking by and joke with them. I love you only comes when I haven't tried to get him to talk to me about anything important or if he has pushed to the point of me wanting to take a break.

First thought: deliberately shutting down the 'cylinders', and then offering a patch-up 'I love you' to keep things running til the next round. (again, experienced this firsthand.)

He said that he is treating the doctor worse than he has treated me during our relationship.

First thought: Sounds like he is almost laughing at you. This thought may be tainted by my previous experiences, but for me, hearing this makes me think that he is openly saying that he knows how he treats you, isn't sorry, and now has a new benchmark to work towards because, after all, he's "sick" and so is entitled to be an asshole to the doctor.

And then is brazen enough to acknowledge it to your face, but is too 'jumbled' in the brain to deal with it when you bring up the topic instead of him.

I don't want my 2 yo and 5 month old to grow up not knowing their dad

Monsters aren't fathers.

I have seen "the look"

In an ideal world, you shouldn't even know what that 'look' means, or experience it from your husband.
I think of it this way, do I allow a catalyst to become the reason I leave, or do I pre-empt 'the strike' and get out before there is a memory that no-one will ever forget.
Leave under your own steam, not his physically violent one.

a willing choice on his part.

It is a willing choice to behave like this, and people love having excuses to behave like asses. What better way to facilitate the unacceptable behaviour of a bully than to have a diagnosis that 'allows' free rein?

I love my kids and they need me and deserve better than this.

They do, but so do you.
Life will go on once you have rebuilt a life with your children, but don't let it be rebuilding yourself along with the new life, the children need you, and won't have anyone else, so you need to protect yourself and fiercely as you protect your children.
As soon as you are down, your children are exposed.

something happens then it is not on me.

It never will be 'on you' if something does happen, but this is still the start of healthy thinking for yourself and the little ones.

You may be supporting a Sufferer, but truth be told, in your own way, you are also a 'Sufferer'.
Seek the help you need also, if he refuses to get better, then that frees you up to devote even more energy into 'getting better' yourself.

 

[HelloMo80]

I read this earlier and I started to comment but instead I went to the movies. I'm back now and this was still on my mind so I'm going to impart some words of advice (won't say wisdom because what's wise for me, may not seem wise to you.)

It's abuse when someone manipulates you into thinking you are the cause of all their hurt, anger, disappointment, rage, joy, sorrow, etc. You are not God. You do not hold the power of life and death. So when someone charges you with their feelings and then blames you for their actions as a result of their feelings, they are usually doing this with intent for leverage or the upper hand. Some people do this unconsciously and others are very aware of their actions to achieve the desired result from someone in their midst.

I learned the hard way that cheating, lying, being aggressive, possessive and cunning is not a part of PTSD. Not to say that folks with PTSD don't do some or all of those things. However, the PTSD won't be the ONLY factor in one's decision to make those choices.

You have to arm yourself with the tools to get out. You could just up and leave right now but you'd be right back because you're not ready. Someone suggested you get yourself a personal counselor (not couple's counselor). I agree. It won't be until then that you see how you contribute to this push/pull cycle.

Someone on this forum told me that there is no difference between someone with PTSD acting out in the ways you listed and an abuser. If someone has PTSD, doesn't get treated, and does all that you listed...it's not the PTSD that is the issue. It's the refusal to get help and the choices they make. PTSD may contribute in some instances, but bottom line...what you are experiencing is abuse. Plain and simple. Now...the questions is, what are you going to do to protect yourself and your kids? Doing all the reading, research, understanding, walking on eggshells, etc will not work when you're dealing with someone who gets a payoff for the manipulation they inflict on others. Acknowledge the payoff you're getting from this exchange (and you'll figure that out with the help of the counselor) replace it with good emotional payoffs that don't involve him (or any other man--as in don't replace one issue by finding someone new until you understand what your role in this is) and withdraw yourself piece by piece.

Good luck.

 

[Abstract]

Others have said everything I wanted to say. What you describe is extremely concerning. I worry what next might happen to you or your children.

I guess man reasons I'm still trying is that I don't want my 2 yo and 5 month old to grow up not knowing their dad much like my 4 yo.

There are far worse things than not knowing ones father! Not knowing ones father never gave anyone PTSD for one thing...

 

[p-no]

confused_wife, I didn't want to only "like" Nicolette's post, but comment, too, as I think it is important to actually say it another time, as we're all so used to abuse and all those patterns that keep us in the abusive situations although we could be out.

I am here because I had a mother who was emotionally, physically, psychologically, etc. abusive to me all my life. I am 38 now. We had lots of friends, family, acquaintances. They knew. I know because some of them I asked for help, others I remember being there while I was being abused, others were abused by mother as well and yet others told me later, when I was an adult. I am here because all those people did nothing. My having PTSD chronically could have been avoided, not only by my mother as the primary abuser, but also by all those others who knew and did nothing. What children need who grow up like this is to be taken out of such an environment. They do not need a father (mother/grandfather/uncle/etc.) like this. All they would do would be learning the wrong things. And from those others around they would learn that

a) people obviously didn't care enough for them
b) they weren't worth saving
c) actions and words don't have to match, who cares anyway
d) sitting quietly while being abused is the normal thing to do while someone is abusing someone else
e) never trust anyone; those you should be closest to haven't saved you, why would anyone else

I put that a) - e) because 1) to 5) might suggest an order of effect on self, but there is none. All are equally painful to learn.

I would not have to be here today, it was because people didn't act that I have to look back on a long list of traumas because early-on nobody showed me that I even was a self that was worth protecting.

If you can't see how detrimental he is for you, please, please look at your kids and then feel. And maybe for now, read what it says when you come to this website, the text in the blue top area that describes what PTSD is. I do often, so I don't fall back into denial. This is what you can spare your children of in addition to the abuse they will continue to go through if you remain hoping for someone to change who doesn't even care.

 

[Valentino]

is this from the PTSD and something to try to work thru a longer? Or plain manipulation? How do you figure it out? What is real and what is smoke?

Rage & anger outbursts from PTSD are typically from triggers and have an irrational and uncontrolled nature. A trauma survivor has unprocessed hurt from past traumas, getting triggered by a recent experience, and then their nervous system shoots up tons of adrenaline, fight or flight kicks in, and they seek safety but often times also look to attack & defend against anything that feels similar to the original abuser/threat.

Abuse is a pattern of aggression (active & internal) that has manipulative qualities for self gain. It is often a consistent pattern or character trait, but can be masked by many different techniques and forms. But if you step back and look objectively or ask a more objective third party, that might help to recognize what patterns underlie what seems like random actions on the surface.

It is all about motivation. If the motive is more to seek safety and feel normal, it is more from PTSD. If the motive is for self gain, controlling someone else, feeling good at the expense of others, it's more likely abuse. But there can also be combination of both PTSD & abuse, as some abuse victims end up becoming abusers as a very unhealthy coping mechanism for their PTSD.

Just do not see what is wrong with hoping that some time in the future he would get to a place to allow us to be together. But if it is WHO he is and not because of his disease then I would know there is no hope of it happening. EVER. The last little piece of hope I was hanging onto is all.

I have recently finally understood what a borderline/narcissist personality disordered person is really like. Two of my secondary traumatic woundings were from them, and the long lingering confusion and failure of making sense of their actions, being on the receiving end of abuse from a BPD/NPD type amped up my PTSD symptoms, and also confused my ability to trust anything or reality.

I just came back from a local trauma support group meeting, and 5 out of 6 people there received abuse or trauma from BPD/NPD people. Some were family members others were spouses. And if you've received abuse from BPD/NPD then you also mirror some of their symptoms, but also many PTSD symptoms mirror BPD/NPD.

I don't know if you're dealing with a borderline/narcissist, but it might be worth investigating, if anything I'm describing rings true.

BPD/NPD can be highly manipulative, charming, impulsive, split between overly needy loving caregivers or extreme fear of abandonment anger & jealousy. They also have self identity issues, borderlines latch onto relationships and mirror other people's goals for their own identity, narcissists seek out feelings of grandeur, constantly need to win and dominate or are attention hogs.

BPD/NPD lack consideration for others, they have very limited remorse or guilt. They lack empathy, they just can't or don't want to consider other's people's feelings. They are also very good at blaming others, avoid responsibility at all costs (part of being impulsive).

They are extreme sympathy seekers, they actively seek out pity.

They have extreme fear of rejection or abandonment, a common physical tell is a facial or physical wince whenever they might perceive a rejection or non-validation. That wince is their mind pushing down their almost instant reaction to rejection, which is a consistent pattern which happens often.

And threatening suicide is a very common manipulative technique, it elicits instant sympathy, and also can be used to blame others, giving the victim a very powerful position.

Please, don't let hope cloud your objectivity and judgement.

... Just sharing some thoughts, it feels like he's quite manipulative and it possibly a personality trait. I hope you can discover some insight and find some understanding. I can relate to how confused you must feel. It sucks. In a way you're also a trauma or abuse survivor/sufferer.

 

[Keepingthefaith5]

Wow. I know this post is old, but I am currently in the same boat. My vet hasn't been physically abusive, but I can relate to the emotional and verbal abuse. This thread literally reflects my current situation. He says that living without me petrifies him, that he needs me now more than ever, I have tried ending things with him and he has thrown the suicide excuse out.

How was the outcome? I hope it all worked out in your favor and you and your kids are doing good!

As far as the narcissits comment goes, woo on the dot. I had a feeling my vet was borderline narcissist, the description above proved it.